Talk about ND Graduate walk out? or enough politics for now?

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/05/21/mike-pence-speech-students-walk-out-notre-dame-gr...

Watch the girl in the prime seat. She has a rainbow flag on her cap and turns for him to stare at it his entire speech. Cracks me up.

A lot of whites tassels!

What is red - [s]engineering[/s]? Theology.

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I'm walking out if they don't give us Oreos.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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What's there to discuss?

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...for me to tell you I approve of this post.

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I also believe that, in 25 or 40 years, they'll regret turning what should be a day of celebration for them into a day of protest. It's one of those moments in life to sit back, reflect on where one has been and where one is going, celebrate with one's family and friends (for some, with gallons of beer or lots of other alcohol). To circle back to conversations we've had here before, generally a university graduation can stand as a kairotic moment for people.

To make it a moment of political protest is certainly the right of the individual -- and particularly where it was silent protest and thus not disrupting that moment for others but rather each individual showing her or his position or cause -- but I have to think that the person will regret using that day for that purpose as the person ages and realizes how few time-out-of-time moments she or he has in life. There will always be days to protest; there are few life moments that stand out like this one.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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if I had protested during one of my graduations, I may remember them. I don't remember a thing about undergrad or graduate ceremonies or receptions. Do people really look back regularly on their graduation ceremonies with fondness or anything else?

Plus, Pence is horrible and should never have been invited by ND. So standing up against what that man believes is should never be a regrettable moment.

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I detest Trump, but Pence is irredeemably awful and should never been invited? There are those of us who viewed Obama's support for partial-birth abortion as irredeemably awful and we were told by many here that such a view should not keep people who truly understand Notre Dame from open engagement with viewpoints with which they disagree. Plus, it's the office of the President we were told.

Many of you guys preach the fuck out of tolerance but that ends the moment you have to tolerate another view.

And before you ask, I'm no huge fan of Pence's either, but I'm even less a fan of blatant hypocrisy.

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Did you read all of my posts here? I've made it clear that I would prefer that politicians not be the norm. But if ND is going to invite every sitting president, then that's the justification for Obama being invited. If people want to protest that, knock yourselves out (though I think your statement about partial birth abortions is less than accurate).

Pence is not president. He was chosen outside of that "tradition" (to the extent you can still call it a "tradition" when 2/4 of the last presidents haven't been invited). Pence, when compared to all other potential speakers, is an embarrassment. The impact he has on women, poor and minorities - populations that ND promotes itself as serving at every half-time "What would you fight for" commercial - makes him a terrible choice. If he were the sitting president, I'd still think it was regrettable, but it would be defensible. And I'd still support students who decided to protest.

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But I think it's perfectly fair for people to have protested Obama in the same way that Pence was treated, as long as it's respectful. Abortion is obviously an issue that is central to ND and Catholicism in general.

Again, this is part of why I would prefer that ND largely sidestep inviting politicians.

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Also fine for people to protest.

Plenty of people in this thread disagreeing on different points so I'm not sure why you feel the need to broad brush everyone.

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If you don't think this forum is hostile to conservative viewpoint, to the point where blanket statements that essentially say "you are a cretin if you believe x & y" then you kidding yourself.

Those of us who fit the bill are saddled with some horrific representatives right now which makes it tough to engage, but too often here the ideals we hold to are mocked just as much as the people you detest.

And I do not see a corresponding willingness to call out your own candidates. HRC was an awful candidate and many of the conservative objections mirrored those the Obama fan club used in earlier primaries but they were largely brushed aside here for partisanship.

Audit the last 10 political threads and tell me my "echo chamber" comment was off the mark.

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except I really do not know how to define "conservative viewpoint" as you use it in your statement related to this forum's hostility.

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And it's also fine to believe that there were many better options than Pence for speaker.

But a number of the left-libertarians here went further to say that Pence is such a horrible figure that he is unworthy of the invitation. This kind of illiberalism seems quite prominent today on both the left and the right, and it's troubling.

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I signed it because although it was a strongly-worded condemnation of Pence, it was not a petition to disinvite him.

As repulsive as I find Pence, I think the university is a perfect "town square" venue in which to appear, and for his opponents to air their grievances.

Thought the same thing about Milo Y. appearing at Berkeley and the concomitant protest -- perfectly fine, in fact, ideal. I don't approve of the black mask hooligans and property damage, though.

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He's a provocateur and offers absolutely nothing to the discourse. I have no interest in offering people like him a forum.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, TPG lawyers, but if student/alumni organizations have the means to invite a speaker, a public school can't prevent that speech. If I remember right, it was Berkeley's Student Republican Club, rather than the school itself, that invited Yiannopoulos, and I think something similar happened elsewhere with Spencer.

I agree that these assholes offer nothing to the discourse, and it's cynical for anyone to pretend otherwise, but if student groups are cynical enough to invite racist assholes, I'm not sure what public schools can legally do about it. (ND, of course, can and should have a "No Racist Assholes Need Apply" speaker policy in place.)

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on this question. Public universities do have some latitude if they believe the speaker's presence could lead to violence or intimidation. I think Berkeley canceled Coulter's appearance for this reason.

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that he went to Cal Berkeley SPECIFICALLY to out undocumented students who attend the university, so that ICE could scoop them up and deport them.

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I understand the general "town hall" ethos surrounding places like ND, but I also agree with the notion that the marketplace of ideas sometimes needs to have a few recalls (see: Charles Murray). These people have all sorts of other ways to get their ideas out and in no way are required to have a speaking invitation to a college campus.

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for inviting Murray was pretty strong.

But thinking more about this, I would agree that there's a good argument for banning someone like Yiannopolous.

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An invitation to speak is part of the free exchange of ideas, which is foundational to the university; an honorary doctorate is an overt commendation and tacit endorsement of a person's work. I think it's reasonable to afford more latitude to the former than to the latter.

I'm not thinking specifically about Pence here: I agree that ND was within their rights to invite him and that the students were within their rights to protest. But Slainte's question below about a standard is both interesting and necessary, particularly now that fringe ideologies are encroaching on the mainstream. In an era where Richard Spencer and Milo Y. get speaking engagements at universities, it's probably a good idea to establish a floor.

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Students disagree with Pence's stances and make a protest decision to walk out. Some leftists are upset that they didn't yell/scream/boo, rightists are upset that they left at all and call them snowflakes. By being upset at the protests, rightists themselves are snowflakes because they're upset their guy is being protested against. Same thing here, arguments are made that it's the office, not the man, but others share their displeasure and opinions against said man. Responses to those from some had been negative. The cycle continues.

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alt right term? This whole thread started because one of my partners asked me about it.

My original response was that "a bunch of smart nerds with too much time on their hands."

He then called them snowflakes and said they should not get their diplomas.

I did not take the bait but then told him they were SMART, the diplomas were already in hand.

I ended the conversation with this:

This excerpt probably best reflects the controversies/protests at ND whether protesting liberals or conservatives:

“Indeed, it seems that the most vocal opponents of the president's visit only represent a small minority of the college community. Most people that I speak to are either happy and excited or indifferent," said Tara Pillai, a 21-year-old junior from Kentucky. I don't know very many students who are super upset. Maybe they didn't vote for him, but they're flattered to have him speak here."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-the-obama-notre-dame-controversy/

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Is a term generally directed at people who usually oppose general bigotry/racism - and occasionally over-the-top political correctness, to be fair. "Snowflakes" get "triggered" because they're fragile and not ready for the real world, or something like that. People who use the term snowflake unironically are generally mad about everything almost all of the time and are some of the dumbest people you will encounter online.

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When I said the press shouldn't even be covering such a small segment of ND:

"Because anything negative to Trump or Pence or Christianity or gun rights or right to life or traditional marriage will be shown by the media. Every time.

College campuses in most places are liberal hotbeds. Young people by and large are brainwashed snowflakes."

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...that college-aged kids who need "safe spaces" on their campuses where they can go to escape people who think differently from them are the product of shitty parenting. I can think that without calling them names, but I can't do it without calling their parents (and sometimes their high school teachers) names.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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and "trigger warnings" in the university environment. Let's just say the original intent has been twisted for political exploitation. Shocker, I know.

I don't really want to kick off a discussion about this but we could chat about it over a beer sometime.

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I do think that, like affinity dorms, there is a good reason to have places where kids-on-the-threshold-of-adulthood are not subject to adult political debate or other adult issues and can just relax and be kids for a while in an environment that is comfortable for them. But you're right -- the terms you mention have been used so politically by both sides that the good is now subjected to the warping influence of adults.

Plus, beer is always good.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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I have two main problems with it:

1) I'm not enamored of Mike Pence, but he's the Vice President of the United States and there's a certain amount of respect accorded that office regardless of who holds it. I hold Bill Clinton in fairly low regard, but if I ever met him I would shake his hand and sincerely express what an honor it was, because he still deserves a minimum (and substantial) level of respect regardless of how I feel personally about him.

2) By walking out, rather than not showing up as the Obama protesters did, they took attention away from the other students - whose beliefs, no doubt, spanned the ideological spectrum - and the celebration that the day was meant to be for all of them.

I wouldn't have liked anyone walking out of Obama's speech either, and I wasn't a big fan of the protesters who turned their backs on Dubya and knelt in the aisles to pray the rosary throughout his speech. To me, the rosary protest and the walkout protest are both rather Pharisaic - almost like the primary message is "Hey everyone, look at me and take note of how much I disagree with this guy!" rather than "I want you to realize this person has done [x,y,z] things that I find objectionable." The Obama protesters, who made a significant personal sacrifice to state their message without unduly impacting the students who were there, did it the right way.

There are more than enough opportunities around commencement weekend to protest meaningfully without impacting the ceremony itself. I'm not rending my own garments over it or anything - in the end I doubt it will be much more than a footnote for anyone who was there - but I think there were more sensible ways to make the point they wanted to make.

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"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

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Considering the types of issues these ND kids disagreed with Pence on, they were pretty damn polite about it.

I'm not arguing for the effectiveness of violence or anything, but that whole thing was on the far, far side of peaceful and polite dissenting conduct. it was the most ND protest ever.

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in that venue and context, it is impossible to have effective protest of the type they wanted. As I said on another forum that shall not be named, it inescapably becomes self-important, disrespectful, and a little bit douchey.

Like you said, a very Notre Dame protest.

What is revealed in this thread is that some have little sense of what self-importance is or why it might be problematic, and others believe that invited guest Mike Pence does not merit respect. So it's all to the good to them.

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I'm trying to discern the proper line between "person I disagree with" and "person so odious as to be disqualified from delivering commencement address."

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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He's against anyone that's not a rich white man and his policies to that end are extreme. Why would you invite Pence? It's not as if there's a long tradition of Vice Presidents speaking at commencement. They didn't invite Gore instead of Clinton (and, Clinton didn't speak). Is Trump not there because he's a terrible person or b/c he was only anti-abortion when he decided to run for president?

He's complicit in everything Trump does. Not campaigning the day the pussy grabbing video leaked shows only lack of backbone, nothing more. If he were truly against the terrible things Trump says and does, he wouldn't have rode the man's coattails to national prominence.

Trump would have actually be less bad because of the tradition (though skipping Clinton was stupid). Picking Pence is an embarrassment imo.

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for what would disqualify [s]someone[/s] a politician from being the commencement speaker at ND. What do you think that standard should be?

Do all conservative Republicans fail your test?
Would any Democrats fail it?

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I'd prefer if they were invited only after their political careers ended.

However, I can see the value in saying every sitting president has spoken at ND commencement going back XXX years. I was a little pissed that GWB was invited after Clinton was not (this was also when I first became aware of the "tradition"). But then Obama was, so I thought maybe it was just one of several bad decisions ND made in the early 90s. Now Trump has been skipped and it's no longer a tradition of inviting every sitting president. It's picking and choosing based on support for certain policies or whatever the university decides to have for its standards. Taking an ad hoc approach to inviting politicians that lands on "Mike Pence" is embarrassing.

So, if it were up to me, no active politician would be commencement speaker. Retired politicians, or other world leaders, (especially from outside the US) who can bring a perspective that may not be well known to the graduates, would be my focus. Against that standard, very very few conservative republicans would qualify, but of course, the same is true for most democrats.

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The world is full of writers, artists, educators, humanitarians, and thinkers worth listening to, so there's no reason to prioritize politics over all other fields.

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With extreme prejudice.

I'm actually surprised that ND falls into the trap as often as they do. I can think of literally a thousand people who would be more appropriate commencement speakers than Mike Flipping Pence, a man with no spirit and no imagination whatsoever. He's basically a Bible with ears.

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Pence is that he's a crappy speaker.

Given the unique nature of ND, I wish we would focus on finding commencement speakers that better track the character of the University. It seems like we are fishing in the same pond for speakers as every other top 40 university, when there are only a handful out of that bunch who have any business participating in our sendoff.

I'm not saying it should be an alum with any frequency, but this goes back to the Joe Kernan piece of this thread. He was the least prestigious speaker over four years but gave overwhelmingly the best speech.

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Hi, Brian Williams!

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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you hope they aren't all brian williams and bill cosby. but the chances of finding an actual decent human being jump up exponentially when you get outside the political circle.

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by the Laetare medal award winner who gives a speech as well?

The speaker is usually government (with a few exceptions) and the Award recipient is usually arts/humanities (with a few exceptions).

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of not inviting sitting politicians.

In terms of setting a standard for politicians, though, I would think some minimal level of personal moral fitness and decency is called for. Trump clearly fails that test, while Obama and Pence would pass. Interesting that Clinton would fail this test too, although I doubt that's why he wasn't invited.

I suppose there are some policies that are so odious they would warrant exclusion. Mass round-ups and deportations of undocumented immigrants, for example. But once you get into this realm, it's understandable why a vocal segment of the university would object to a pro-choice president.

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Trump out.
Obama in.
Bush in.
Clinton?

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founding fathers and through (and perhaps including) Harding.

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I've typed and deleted a number of responses to this (ETA: by "this" I actually meant Slainte's post about articulating a standard; my original message was poorly worded). I don't think any of my detailed responses on the morals policy will result in productive conversation.

But the lumping of a guy who got a BJ in the oval office with Trump is just misguided. We all know he wasn't the first guy to fool around with WH staff. Everyone knows JFK was fucking around in the WH and god knows how many presidents in history have felt up staffers (or worse). Clinton is far from a saint but he falls far closer to Obama than Trump on the "respect the office" spectrum.

Bottom line: I don't think trying to find a bright line of morally qualified politicians is a useful exercise.

If the University decides that all sitting presidents will be invited b/c if the American people elected them, then our students should hear their thoughts during commencement, fine. You have to live and die with that standard, though, and the University clearly has chosen not to. No matter, Mike Pence doesn't fall in the bucket. He was a choice made from thousands of other possible speakers. Even if you don't think he was a bad choice, I'd be shocked if anyone looked at his record and said "he's the best possible person to speak to the next generation of ND grads" right now. That's the conclusion ND apparently came to and I'm saddened by that. (FWIW, I'd feel the same way, though not on moral grounds, if Bernie Sanders were the choice.)

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And numerous women accused him of sexual harassment. It's a discredit to decent man like Obama to say that Clinton is closer to him in character than to Trump.

I'm not a fan of Pence's politics, but I certainly don't think it's any kind of embarrassment to have the former governor of your state and current Vice President as the commencement speaker. That said, I agree that there were much better choices. In terms of politicians, though, Bernie would have kicked ass.

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Pol Pot is closer to Obama than Trump, as well.

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i was trying to think of an example to really drive home the point and you nailed it

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on the spectrum of presidents as decent humans, Obama is on one end (with people like Lincoln) and Trump is a the far other end. I'm not saying Obama was the greatest president. But given the internet age and the fact that nothing has come out about his character (and lord knows how much digging was done), I think he's pretty near the top of the decency heap among presidents.

I don't know enough about presidential history to rank everyone, but I'd put Clinton near the middle. Yes, he's been accused of sexual harassment and yes, he cheated on his wife. I'm wiling to assume that more presidents than not have sexually assaulted women and cheated at some point during their lives. I don't think that's controversial given the power of the position, the ego it takes to want it, and the way women have been treated historically.

He was disbarred after leaving office b/c of the Lewinsky scandal. I mean, Clinton's statements about his sexual affairs should never have been under oath, but he shouldn't have lied. Though he wasn't the worst actor of all the folks involved in that circus. Again, he's not a saint, but the presidential pool is a pretty nasty one.

Finally, I don't think Obama would be offended if you told him that Clinton was closer to him than he is to Trump on the decency scale. I think it's pretty clear how he feels about Trump. On that basis, I'm fine with my position.

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I think the Pope agrees with you and Obama

[image]

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the Pope is pretty ticked off that Trump appointed Newt's 3rd wife as the ambassador to the Vatican.

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came into my mind as I typed it.

The only one who I would disqualify on my standard is Trump.

But I really really can't stand him because I think he is a loser.

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you'd essentially revert back to no politicians pretty fast.

The American political scene no longer appreciates nuance.

I like the moral hurdle clause that strains out Trump. FTR, I've heard that Clinton was invited but that he was never more than lukewarm to the idea.

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What Would Ted Do? Perform a social/political/personal statistical analysis of all commencement speakers during the time between Fr. Ted becoming President through his death (because I have to think he played a role in all such decisions even as President Emeritus). Would a particular speaker fall within that spectrum? If so, then they are acceptable as a commencement speaker, as far as I'm concerned.

And although JN makes very good points about why Pence's policies are reprehensible, I think he probably would have made the cut under Fr. Ted. I don't agree with him on the vast majority of issues -- certainly not any social issues -- but I think he passes the test. Honestly, my biggest beef with Pence as a commencement speaker is that, based on his remarks at Fr. Ted's "funeral" at the JACC, he's a crappy speaker.

Trump would not, for reasons more personal and social than political. There's a line where "respect the office" stops and "consider the person in that office" starts. That particular office deserves a massive amount of latitude -- I would have been fine with anyone between Nixon and Clinton speaking at Commencement. Trump falls waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside that particular bell curve.

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is not respectful of the office so why should ND endorse that position by inviting him?

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Trump certainly fails the test, mostly due to his abhorrent personal qualities.

I wouldn't exclude Obama or Pence.

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I have not resided in Indiana since 2010, so perhaps I am missing something. I researched your claim and found this excerpt from NPR, which attributes the HIV outbreak to opioid addiction and needle sharing:

"Pence drew criticism from local and national infectious disease experts for his response to an urgent health crisis in Indiana. In February of 2015, the state reported an outbreak of HIV in Scott County, blamed on opioid addiction and needle sharing.

It got so bad — growing to more than 80 cases in the month after the announcement, and more than 190 to date — that the CDC went to Indiana to investigate, and public health experts began calling for a needle exchange. At the time, syringe exchanges were illegal in the state, and Pence was opposed to changing that, at first.

He later signed an emergency declaration allowing Scott County to start a needle exchange program. Rather than legalize such exchanges statewide, Pence signed a bill that forces counties to ask permission to start a needle exchange.

Only a few counties have done it, so far, because the process takes a lot of planning, local support and money, which the state doesn't provide, says Carrie Lawrence, a researcher with the Rural Center for AIDS/STD Prevention.

"If you're the health department with only two part-time staff, and a full-time health director, who's going to do this, and when is it going to happen?" Lawrence says."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/21/486771345/as-indiana-governor-mike-...

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Are you saying that the dearth of syringe exchanges was the cause of the HIV outbreak?

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Long answer, this New York Times report:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/us/politics/mike-pence-needle-exchanges-indiana.html...

Edited to add: This report doesn't touch on the other part of the equation: With Pence as Governor, in 2013, a local Planned Parenthood was forced to shut down. Planned Parenthood was the only place in the area where the poor could get free, reliable HIV tests, so many of these addicts sharing needles literally did not know that they were infected.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/indiana/2016/07/27/ind-could-have-avoid...

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that a politician who advocates policies contrary to Notre Dame's values shouldn't be invited to speak at commencement?

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As an Indiana native, I paid particularly close attention to his career, especially since it was clear that he wanted to make a run to the Presidency at some point.

As Governor, he started an HIV outbreak, he embarrassed the state with that RFRA nonsense, told the State Department he wouldn't allow Syrian refugees in the state (keep in mind, we have a large Syrian population in Northwest Indiana), tried to implement a "Papers, Please" immigration law in the state, opened a state-run news outlet, denied the state millions of dollars in federal funds for early childhood education, and believes in gay conversion therapy.

I understand and accept that no politician is perfect. I just am intimately familiar with this one. I don't believe anyone should celebrate him.

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I appreciate such a detailed response.

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It was just a bunch of Trump voters.

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I think the list of leaders who should not be invited for ethical reasons is probably fairly short.

Whether you agree with his policies or not, he is still the VP of the US. There is no such thing as a politician that everyone agrees with.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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What did they miss by walking out?

I don't remember much about my graduation ceremony. The week was a great celebration with friends and family, but the ceremony itself seemed pretty superfluous. Cosby's speech was funny, but in hindsight, not a speaker to be particularly proud of.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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Can't remember a thing she said. But decades later, I stand by what I said above: I'm glad my graduation day was one focused on friends and family and not one focused on my own socio-political views.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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There was a lot of hue and cry about how all we could get was the freaking lieutenant governor, and from Indiana - not even the top guy, and not even from a cooler state. Poor Joe... I was one of the idiots who had my nose out of joint about it, of course. I don't remember any specifics of his speech, but he was good and he was very funny. I didn't find out until his speech that he was a Vietnam vet and a Notre Dame alum, which was probably a failing of both ND's PR department and my own general awareness.

I have no idea what the exact quote would be at this point, but he opened with something like, "I'm sorry I'm not better." It brought the house down and defused all the stupidity immediately. He was certainly better than expected.

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"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

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stuff about Kernan. He was actually a Vietnam POW for 11 months. He gave a heck of a speech. Because of friends and siblings, I attended Commencement for his speech and also the next three, all of whom were much more "prestigious." Kernan's was overwhelmingly the best speech of the bunch.

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I would've rather had him over out speaker, Immelt, though I am admittedly biased because Mr. Kernan is a good family friend.

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who started out his speech apologizing for not being Bono.

Then again, that year we gave the Laetare Medal to Martin Sheen, who I choose to pretend was our actual graduation speaker.

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a half pretending that Jed Bartlet is our actual president.

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But she was actually our speaker. Harvard professor at the time, and had just been named a Vatican something or other. Really just blah.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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then she was worse than the worst ever.

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Laetare to the rescue.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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and wondered why we never read him at ND

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https://www.amazon.com/Life-You-Save-May-Your/dp/0374529213

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My God do I wish I'd skipped that speech.

We were all bored. I was hungry. The day before felt like something special, when we all had small ceremonies with our various colleges, but the big commencement event feels like something that's done just because it's supposed to be done.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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extremely condescending. Libby Dole the year before was a zero. I thought Bush II gave a great speech at graduation that year.

Overall, I agree that the Bac Mass and the individual ceremonies are the best parts of Commencement.

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to be particularly memorable. The fun is the post-celebrations with family and friends,

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Conservatives demand free speech on college campuses (which they are correct about), yet lose their shit when individuals exercise their free speech rights counter to their own patriotic beliefs.

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punishment for me.

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I don't agree with it, but I get it. They basically say that one has given up the right to life due to one's crimes against other humans. So OK, there's some logic. But a lot of people who hold the pro-life-for-the-unborn position are not all that involved in stopping human trafficking or other crimes against the lives of born persons and they don't appear all that worried about refugees from war and famine in the way that one devoted to the value of life would be. So I agree with you that there's inconsistency in the overall positions taken but I do get their stance on capital punishment.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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are all right to life issues. The new budget highlights the dearth of true right to life proponents among conservatives. They are simply anti-abortion and should be referred to as such.

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yeah, there's at least a conceivable argument to be made there.

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I think this happens pretty much every time a president/VP speak at ND, or any college for that matter.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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He had to follow her, which was hilariously awkward. I thought this Pence thing was pretty respectful all in all.

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Mild. Respectful.

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Berkeley picks protests like that out of its stool.

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This is the last of an exchange with someone who called Universities "liberal hotbeds":

This excerpt probably best reflects the controversies/protests at ND whether protesting liberals or conservatives:

“Indeed, it seems that the most vocal opponents of the president's visit only represent a small minority of the college community. 'Most people that I speak to are either happy and excited or indifferent,' said Tara Pillai, a 21-year-old junior from Kentucky. 'I don't know very many students who are super upset. Maybe they didn't vote for him, but they're flattered to have him speak here.'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-the-obama-notre-dame-controversy/

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major Universities -- actually, I don't really have an opinion on the University as a whole but a significant chunk of the law school faculty has (a) served in Republican administrations; (b) served on the Bush legal team in Bush v. Gore; or (c) clerked for conservative USSC Justices. That was definitely true when I was there, say, 15 years ago, and I'm not aware of any significant change.

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I was there a long time before you, and ND was very conservative then. I would think that it has gotten more conservative now because of how exclusive and expensive it has become. Mostly white, wealthy, and Catholic--how could it not be? Although there may be some cognitive dissonance w/r/t Catholic teachings and its service orientation.

ND Demographics:
0.2% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.0% Asian
3.9% Black/African-American
11.0% Hispanic/Latino
4.3% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.0% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
74.0% White
0.6% Unknown

(http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1774)

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but it's millenial/digital native conservatism - which is more libertarian than Trumpist.

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No data, just guesses based on the fact that southerners tend to be more conservative.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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The research triangle in NC is notoriously liberal, especially in contrast with the rest of the state. It's actually a running joke in Duke circles how much of their student body comes from NY/NJ. The University of Michigan has a similar thing going on.

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it didn't do Paul Griffiths any favors.

I await the Hauerwas response. Should be a good'n.

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Definitely southern, but upper crust southern, not redneck southern. Not sure what that means politically, but I suspect relatively conservative.

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Northeastern states and West (CA) coast states than the South.

Maybe not?

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Though the "alt-right" isn't really "conservative." It's just extremely racist liberalism.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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...was most likely based on some shit that went down at Duke. It just has to be.

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What's your Squire visitation window this summer?

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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("What is a blucher?")

I was thinking about rolling up in September but haven't locked anything down at this point. My summer schedule is still somewhat in flux. How about you?

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Kid stuff pushed us back off the Independence Day window this year.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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I'm also planning on coming out to LA to visit my sis for a week in July or August. I'll hit you, Jay and River with dates in a sidebar once it's firmed up.

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July 21-30 if anybody is around.

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I'm guessing that ND students are generally less homophobic than they were in my day. As for the faculty, I think there have always been plenty of liberals in Arts and Letters, if not necessarily in the law or business schools.

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I was not disappointed.

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the Polo Grounds

Talk about ND Graduate walk out? or enough politics for now?

I'm at my son's preschool graduation right now

Protest is good and Pence is irredeemably awful.

Now hold on a second

I'd say people have every right to do it

Don't think so

A lot of hypocrisy here in the echo chamber

Obama was the president; Pence is not

I don't remember the discussion at that time.

I agree with all of that

I thought it was fine for Pence to speak

Easy for you to say, Jay

I might take exception...

I agree that both are fine.

I signed that (excellent) letter that was going around

I disagree with people like Milo Y.

Agree, but there's a 1st Amendment issue at public schools

My understanding is that the courts have not been consistent

It's also important to note

Right after he outed/mocked a trans student at UW-Mil

I thought the ND prof's argument...

Yes.

The honorary degree complicates matters

d'accord

It's a paradox.

Life!

Wait a second. Is "snowflakes" some kind of

Snowflakes

HA:

he should meet some young people

OK, but I do find...

there's a lot of misinformation around "safe spaces"

Love to

There are different ways to make their point, though

What's the point of a genteel protest?

I think the point is that

On what grounds do you think he shouldn't have been invited?

He agreed to run with an authoritarian ape.

He's a truly awful person who did real damage as Gov

I'm trying to articulate a standard...

If it were up to me politicians wouldn't be the default

I'd like to see a broader range of speakers

It should be deprioritized.

As I said in a previous post, my biggest complaint about

At least with politicians, you know it's all bullshit

Sure, everyone has bias and baggage

So true

Yes.

But isn't that balanced out a bit

Absolutely

I would certainly endorse a policy...

No to any President who does not respect the office.

There may be a few others who would have failed, post-

That's a tough line to draw

He was disbarred for lying under oath.

I'm not sure it was meant as a rousing compliment.

thank you

well

Based on the pictures coming out of today's meeting,

Acc. to the Italian press,

And that's right after he swatted away Trump's hand

Funny. My response was not real well thought out but JFK

I think once you open the policy door

I would approve of that policy.

My personal standard is "WWTD" ...

I agree- see my post above. I think we can say he himself

I tend to agree.

He cut public health funding, causing an HIV outbreak

Can you provide some evidence for this claim?

Short answer, yes.

Are you saying...

To be clear, I'm a bit blinded by my animus for Pence

Fair enough.

He's saying that you shouldn't if you caused an HIV outbreak

Come on now.

Whatever you say, Mr. Leavitt

I agree with you

I doubt they'll regret it

We had Mary Ann Glendon, maybe the worst speaker ever