I really hate to be down on Brey, but he's been here a really long time, and I think that a new look may be necessary.

Iowa, for instance, absolutely floundered after ditching Dr. Tom Davis for Steve Alford. It just got worse with Lickliter, and people thought that the team was relegated to permanent second-tier B1G status.

McCaffrey had the thing turned around almost immediately, and right now they can give anyone in the country a game.

They are 11-2, and their two losses this year were incredibly close - in OT to #8 Villanova, and by 3 to #12 Iowa State.

There are two more "losses" on the board in the next couple weeks, with Wiscy and OSU looming, but I wouldn't put it past Fran to win one of those.

I also don't think it's out of the question for ND to enjoy the kind of success that Iowa basketball is currently enjoying - they should be expected to make the Sweet 16 consistently with Fran, and to occasionally win another tournament game.

ND's modus operandi is to win a couple of regular season games that are very unexpected (usually with streaky 3-point shooting), and then to get absolutely clobbered when the lights turn on and teams start paying attention. That Iowa State loss last year should have been a coach-killer.

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If he agrees that the facilities, commitment, etc. are holding the program back from making a big leap forward (or at least a step forward that includes more than one Sweet 16 appearance in 20 years), then why aren't we hearing more stories about Brey screaming to the rooftops for more help? Why isn't he visiting Swarbrick's office every day and throwing a new plan for a practice facility on his desk?

If he is doing this, and it hasn't produced results, then his salesmanship leaves something to be desired. And probably helps to explain why he and his staff aren't seen as better-than-average recruiters.

If he's stopped doing this because he feels like Sisyphus, then what does that say about him? If he's comfortable in putting this thing on cruise control and not striving to make himself, his players and the program better, why is he still here? If the perception is that he and his assistants are underpaid, why are they still here?

I get the impression that these facilities and administration shortcomings are bandied about simply to point to the fact that ND doesn't have an attractive product for possible Brey replacements. And not necessarily because fixing said shortcomings would help Mike Brey bring the program to another level. I guess I just don't see how these issues lead one to believe that Mike Brey should continue coaching here on a long-term basis. There's an incredible malaise surrounding the program and its tough to see how anything could change short of changing the men in charge and hoping for a resultant shot in the arm.

If it doesn't work after 3 years, so be it. We'll try again. If the new guy can inject some enthusiasm which leads to increased support, better facilities, etc. then great. But anything is better than continuing to tromp down this path and whining (particularly if said whining is coming through media mouthpieces, friends in the profession, etc. rather than from the man himself) about it.

Before laying out any sort of expectations, I think we need to look at what ails the program currently. Beyond resources and infrastructure, the biggest obstacle currently afflicting the program is fear of failure. It's affecting everything, it affects an overly sympathetic fan base. It affects an administration that might not want to delve deeper into a AAU cesspool. But most importantly, this ideology is affecting the actual team. When you lose a game with an 8 point lead with 50 seconds left against the 3rd ranked team in the nation it's not because your team isn't talented enough or you don't have a practice facility or that your peers are spending $1 million more in operating expenses per year. It's because your team is playing not to lose.

And that pretty much sums up my issues with the program under Brey and Notre Dame. He's a very good coach. He can also evaluate talent pretty well, too. But he's not a great recruiter, at least as it pertains to effort. And he's a terrible manager of the greater program (those things that occur off the court). Everything from keeping stale assistant coaches to not extracting leverage during any contract extensions. He just punts most of that in order to play the good soldier.

Before we address reasonable expectations I think we should acknowledge the current malaise and funk that the program is in, and why it exists. And from my vantage point, it's entirely dependent on the fear of failure from the bottom to the top.

I tend to agree with Jay in that championships should be the ultimate goal. That might not be wholly realistic, but if Butler can make back-to-back championship games, George Mason can make it to a Final Four, ditto Virginia Commonwealth, then you can't convince me that it's not possible, even with the current "commitment" to the program. All those situations have a somewhat common theme that links them. Each had a leader overseeing the basketball program. Not just good coaches, but great leaders. Now, those leaders are difficult to identify but they are out there.

I read something by Taxman the other day on the Pit. And he said Swarbrick's hiring of Brian Kelly doesn't make him feel very good about his ability to identify a good basketball coach. That was the point that I knew apologetic basketball supporters have gone full fledged into conspiracy mode. You might not like Kelly's style but it was a solid hire. And I think if anyone could identify a good coach that could give this program a shot in the arm, Jack would be the guy.

But enough rambling and back to your questions. I like aiming for championships but know that might not be on the realistic side. And Kayo's very well-thought out conference comparison spend analysis seems a bit myopic. What I mean by that is that my dad always told me that winners seek solutions, losers make excuses. If Notre Dame is going to win and be successful it needs to find a strategy more in line with the Butlers (maybe even less so the Xaviers) of the world and less like the Dukes or UNCs. Seems silly to try to compete in the same fashion as Duke when ND knows full well that they'll outspend ND. It's a similar adage in football. ND can't compete the same way as Alabama, so it has to compete differently and smarter.

Now, one might point out that a school like Butler recently started a renovation plan to upgrade Hinkle Fieldhouse. But that was started in 2011, still needed private funding, and only came after 4 appearances in the Sweet 16 in a span of less than 10 years. And after operating on an annual spending budget less than Notre Dame, in many of those seasons (at least during the Brey tenure) the Bulldogs spent a million+ dollars less than the Irish. So the most cited and tangible indicators of support (i.e. money and infrastructure) are complete non-starters for me. I've written about expectations previously. So instead of regurgitating it, I'll link to it ( http://bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=91640 ).

People might argue about the success of various programs, but anecdotally it's easy to see why ND basketball is in the malaise it's in. Brian Kelly didn't sign an extension until he was able to satisfy his desire to get some say-so at the table regarding bigger picture aspects affecting the program. Mike Brey hasn't done close to that in 2 separate contract extensions. When you look across ND's successful programs the thing you see is successful leadership at the head coach. It's more than day-to-day strategies and Xs and Os. It's more than identifying under the radar talent. It's about managing the total program. And Brey hasn't shown any willingness to do so. It's always the "aw-shucks, that's above my head" kind of situation.

So my expectations are different than my hope. It is interesting that the previously ardent Brey supporters have changed their tune somewhat, though. Instead of defending Brey, it's been a more focused attack on the administration. But all the stakeholders need to change their paradigm. And instead of focusing on the problems, finding different or alternative solutions would seem to be a better place to start.

If we're in the top half of the conference, that should take care of itself. The years we don't make it should be treated as serious failures and should force some soul-searching. Missing the tournament means you're not a top-40 team.

Other expectations:

I expect a team that can attack and defend the rim.

I expect a team that can play pressure defense when it wants to, including a reasonably effective pressing scheme.

I expect a team to play to its seed in the NCAA tournament. Setting "X number of Sweet Sixteens in Y years" leads to fantasyland pretty quickly. But as Slainte says, it should not be a generational event. That's fucked up.

Advancement to the second weekend of the tournament 3 out of 5 years.

And as Greg noted below, how about consistency between our regular season play and post-season play?

I expect ND to make the tournament all 5 years, including this season. ND has played their way into the tournament with less talent before and I think if Atkins can snap out of this funk and Jackson and the other frosh (along with Auguste) is given just a little more leash they can squeeze out a 10-8 or even 11-7 conference record.

I expect ND to make a sweet 16 run next season if both Grant and Connaughton are back.

I expect another sweet 16 or deeper run one more time in the Demetrius Jackson era especially if none of the guys that are here and coming bust.

I think it's very difficult to ignore that Brey has had some really bad injury luck with some recent recruits like Broghammer and Katenda. Sure Broghammer wasn't supposed to provide much more than depth but he was supposed to be an energy guy that could rebound and defend. Katenda was a high upside 4 star combo forward who's probably never gonna play meaningful minutes. Those are big blows and the effects can be felt with this year's team too.

Brey deserves blame for not developing a guy like Brooks enough but he's also shown that if you're good enough, you'll play meaningful minutes early (see: Atkins, Jackson (both Tory and Demetrius), Connaughton, Harangody even Biedscheid their freshman seasons) so it's not like he doesn't trust youth completely.

Brey's not going anywhere - sure, maybe he'll be strong armed into letting an assistant go (not Solomon who seems to be our best recruiter). The talent has improved in recent years and I'm interested to see if ND can actually land a Matt Ryan over Duke (I think with the new selling point of extra playing time if Biedscheid leaves, we can be the team to beat).

As for admissions standards - I don't think it's a coincidence that the two big scale incidents in football and basketball are also guys who are the best/most important players on the roster. These guys are naturally uber competitive and their mentality is typically a "do anything to win" kind of mentality. Even if they're aware that the classroom isn't the field or the court, they're not going to want to look like the biggest idiot in the room. I'm not excusing their actions at all but just throwing a theory out there that may explain it.

Also - ND could have had Alquadin Muhammad and maybe even Stefon Diggs on our roster right now and would be adding Isaiah McKenzie next season. All those guys sound like difference makers to me. Like could win you 2 games and a shot at the CFB playoffs type of difference makers. Not to mention it's been documented that basketball recruits are typically even more challenged academically than football recruits.

First, I don't expect or even want ND to have an elite basketball program. The college game is fundamentally corrupt due to the AAU influence, shoe companies, agent influence everywhere, 1 and done, NBA $ etc. It starts by 9th or even 8th grade, everyone getting paid and shucksters everywhere while academics are completely ignored.
A kick in the groin to first person who says, hey look at Duke. It's one school, just one, though Stanford has its moments and might be our best, cover your ears you hard core and sensitive ND fans, institutional peer here. Duke has a 30 year head start on us, unparalleled tradition, great location, Coach K, and so much more. We cannot catch Duke in basketball any more than Northwestern can catch us in football.
And Duke is not as pure as they like to act as others here have posted. I have my own Coach K experience which I have shared on various boards in past. He's a small man and I would never let my kid play for him any more than I would his beloved mentor and all-time asshole #1 Bobby Knight (hey ladies, relax and enjoy it).
But I digress.
ND prides itself on academic and athletic excellence. We have found successful niches in soccer and women's b'ball. We do appeal to good students who have great athletic ability. Very few kids make the NBA -and you can certainly field a very good team with kids on NBA bubble who might be eager to have another successful backup career outside basketball.
My short answer to question here: ND Men's b'ball shouldn't be impossible to get to a consistent final 32 level with, as many here are saying, getting to 2nd weekend once in awhile, let's say at least every 4 years for sake of discussion.
But to do that, we have to make ND appealing for basketball to those kids who do fit our academic and limited social culture. Why would say David Robinson't kid or the second coming of Grant Hill even consider ND for basketball now? We bring them to visit for football games or bring them to a basketball game in a half empty arena following practice in a crappy 40 year old facility.
So one very important relatively easy item within our control is practice facilities. Let's have a great practice facility. Let's make a statement that we're still committed to being competitive in men's basketball. The Joyce would be fine for games if the practice facility kicked ass.
Whether Brey is the guy is another question. But let's start with a decent facility and a renewed commitment. Right now it's hard to tell if we are serious about men's b'ball or not.

Should men's hoops be any different?

Over a 5 year period--- 4 NCAA tournaments. One Sweet 16 run. And win 1 NCAA game in 2 of those 4 years....2 decent ACC tournament performances.

How did I come up with those numbers? We have a brand-- and it is a national brand. We offer a great education---exposure, and we play in the best basketball conference in the country.

There is a product to sell to recruits.

We don't need to get the 1-n-dones. But we do need to win a recruiting battle over the big boys every now and then. That may take a different head coach though.

Institutionally----it's time we open the doors on a kid or two, if they can't cut it, oh well. But let's see what happens if we take a chance or two on kids who may make the best of it. I don't buy the practice facility bit-- it's just an excuse.

(1) Have consistent in-season and post-season performance. I was discussing the hoops team with an ND alum colleague yesterday and we were focused on the fact that Brey's Big East and NCAA tournament performances were consistently one step lower than his in-season performance. There doesn't seem to be any honing of skills toward the end of the season or trying new things (and losing some games doing it) early so that the kids gel down the stretch. It has felt for years that the team we put on the floor in a tournament in December is the best team we'll see all year. Now, some will say that this shows how Brey over-achieves in the regular season. And on a year-by-year basis I could see that as true. But when I look at the whole Brey run at ND, I can't help but see that we play our best -- or at our highest level, or whatever -- in December through the first week of February, and other teams seem to pass us by when the season is at its most important. If we can't invert our current pattern and actually be better at the end of the season, we at least need to flatten it so that we are succeeding at the same level in the regular and post seasons.

(2) Maximize the talent you have; get more talent; then maximize that. Over the long haul, Brey has done a good job melding kids of different talent levels, including the transfers. What we are seeing in the past couple years, and especially this year, though is a team that has the "more talent" in its youngsters but where those young kids are not sharing time early in the season so as to maximize their role with the team. Over the past year or two, the "iron seven" jokes weren't jokes any more -- we are just not getting a bigger rotation that could help us as the season wears on. I compare to Pitino, who in some years is practically making line changes out there while in other years he really relies on a few key guys. Or compare to Calhoun who used to have a longer bench early in the year and then put his faith in the kids who had proven something on the floor that year when the season got to its final days. Brey just seems wedded to the develop-then-play system and unwilling to put those talented kids on the floor early and often. What we don't need is poor Visturia taking his first free throw of the season in crunch time against OSU, when he hadn't seen the floor against the patsies we played prior to that game.

In short, my expectations are quality-based and not quite as quantifiable. If I went with quantified objectives, I'd say something like 4 NCAA appearances every 5 years, with 3 of those going to a second game and 1 of the 3 going to the Sweet Sixteen. To me, that's what a team in the middle of today's ACC should be able to do: 1 one-and-done year, 2 years making the Saturday/Sunday game, and 1 year making the second weekend out of every 5 years.

OK, rant over.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

Make the Sweet 16 at least once.
Don't lose to double-digit seeds.
Legitimately compete for a conference title (3rd place or better in regular season play or play in the finals of the conference tournament) at least once.

I don't think those expectations are unrealistic given ND Basketball's historical performance levels.

FWIW your post below was excellent. Hope it doesn't get buried.

3 out of 5 years I'd really like to see the team play on the 2nd weekend of the tournament.
Hell I'd enjoy seeing them actually play on the first weekend instead of home before Saturday morning.

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"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128