here's a question for the forum
by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 14:34 (6237 days ago)
Say you wanted to peg a "minimum yards" goal for your offense for each down & distance combination. For example:
1st & 10: you want a minimum of 5 yards (?)
2nd & 5: you want a minimum of 3 yards (?)
3rd & 2: you want a minimum of 2 yards (?)
I think this might be a way to mark whether a play "worked" or not. What do you think?
And another benchmark
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 17:29 (6237 days ago) @ Jay
I'm really stumping for Football Outsiders tonight, I guess, but there is another stat exclusively for running backs, also called "Success Rate". The idea is that big time running back stats can come in bursts for some players, while others can clear the benchmarks for success, but don't tack on the extra yards. Success rate makes the distinction:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2004/introducing-running-back-success-rate
Success Rate Benchmarks
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 17:16 (6237 days ago) @ Jay
Have you ever read "The Hidden Game of Football" by Pete Palmer, Bob Carroll, and John Thorn? They did some of the first comprehensive SABR-metric stuff for football, charting NFL games about 20 years ago. Their basic benchmarks of success were as follows:
1st Down: Gain 45% of the yards needed for another first down
(1st and 10, gain 4.5 yards; 1st and 15, gain 6.75 yards, etc...)
2nd Down: Gain 60% of the needed yards
(2nd and 10, gain 6.0 yards; 2nd and 5, gain 3 yards, etc...)
3rd or 4th Down: Gain 100% of the needed yards
Aaron Schatz of Football Outsiders built on those concepts and created a more refined set of benchmarks for every situation (down, distance, time remaining, ...) for his advanced NFL play-by-play metric, "DVOA": http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods
The college play-by-play stuff on FO has been mostly developed by Bill Connelly of the Missouri blog Rock M Nation. For an answer your question if not the answer, Bill defines basic success rate as 50% of needed yardage on first down, 70% of needed yardage on second down and 100% of needed yardage on third or fourth down: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/varsity-numbers/2008/varsity-numbers-ncaa-analysis-101
These benchmarks pretty much align with your post.
jumping in, if I may
by Three D, Thursday, March 05, 2009, 10:22 (6236 days ago) @ LaFortune Teller
The benchmarks listed apply nicely when you have a ball-control offense but don't even fit into the philosophy of a large-chunks-of-yard offense, of which there are plenty.
In other words, success or failure in a ball-control offense, whether that is moving the ball through ground or air, is aligned with those metrics. Or, you could turn that around and say that those metrics align with (and might be derived from) the bountiful ball-control offenses in the game.
However, there exist a handful of offenses that are not ball-control but vertical stretch offenses. Success on a given play isn't dependent upon "down & distance" because most plays, if successful, have the potential to break more than 10 yards. The philosophy is to be 'just successful enough' to string together enough almost successful plays (2,3,4 yard gains) to hold a drive together until a big-play occurs. In this philosophy, the metrics you listed don't even make sense. I'm not inclined to argue in support of this philosophy, but it does exist.
I guess this doesn't really add much to your point other than a sidebar to consider.
thanks for the links back to FO
by Jay, San Diego, Thursday, March 05, 2009, 07:56 (6236 days ago) @ LaFortune Teller
edited by Jay, Thursday, March 05, 2009, 10:42
I'll admit it's been a long time since I looked at the DVOA formula (even though I know it's a staple for the pro analyses at FO).
50% on first down and 70% on second down makes sense for most plays (as does 100% on 3rd & 4th, obviously). But do they still make sense if you're in a first-and-long or second-and-long situation?
If you've got 1st & 15 due to a false start, is getting 7.5 yards enough to set you up for success on subsequent downs? I don't think so. Now you're at 2nd and 8. Since first & 10 is the most common down & distance, and we want 5 yards in that situation, doesn't it follow that our "ideal" second down situation is 5 yards or less? If that's the case, on 1st & 15, should we want 10 yards instead? Just thinking aloud here.
I see where you're going
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Thursday, March 05, 2009, 08:14 (6236 days ago) @ Jay
But flip it around: on 1st-and-5, is a 0-yard gain that nets you 2nd-and-5 "success"?
I can't help you with any nitty-gritty details of DVOA (I don't know them), but I think any definition of "success" has to take into account expectations -- that's how I approach drive success, certainly. There may be different definitions of "success" itself -- philosophically, is "success" something that teams achieve 50% of the time? 33%? 20%?
Treating 3rd-and-2 and 3rd-and-10 with the same success measuring stick (100%) doesn't really work for a sliding scale of expectations, but it makes sense for moving the ball down the field. That said, I would guess teams don't approach 1st-and-10 and 1st-and-20 the same way -- they're not both trying to get to 2nd-and-5, are they? Strategically, 1st-down and x-distance probably produces a number of different perspectives on success.
Don't you have some video clips to make?
by PMan
, The Banks of the Spokane River, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 14:50 (6237 days ago) @ Jay
I might shorten 1st and 10 to 4 yards and a second and 6.
3.5 yards every play get you a first down with a half yard to spare.
Yes
by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 15:02 (6237 days ago) @ PMan
Yes I do.
Completely OT: movie question
by PMan
, The Banks of the Spokane River, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 15:25 (6237 days ago) @ Jay
Did you ever see "Sometime in April," and, if so, how does it compare to "Hotel Rwanda"? I had "Sometime" recommended to me by someone who has movie tastes and opinions that are pretty hit-and-miss with mine. I also don't feel like watching a lousy or so-so movie about such a horrible topic.
I haven't
by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 16:02 (6237 days ago) @ PMan
Unfortunately I don't think I've even heard of it, so I can't even give you a secondhand "I heard it was good/bad."
Thanks.
by PMan
, The Banks of the Spokane River, Wednesday, March 04, 2009, 16:13 (6237 days ago) @ Jay
It seems it was an HBO original movie and not in theaters.
I went and read the review below, and I think I'll netflix it.
Review, if you are curious:
http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117926279.html?categoryid=31&cs=1&p=0