OT: Wrestling

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 06:44 (140 days ago)

Not sure there are any wrestling fans on this board (no, not WWE) but the NCAAs start next week at the same time as March Madness. There are some really compelling weight classes and specifically 133 lbs. where a bunch of freshman and veterans clash in what some are calling the toughest NCAA bracket ever. And the race for the Hodge trophy (wrestling's Heisman) is coming down to Jesse Mendez of aOSU at 141 lbs. and Mitchell Mesenbrink of PSU at 165 lbs.

Notre Dame had a pretty interesting wrestling history. Actually, the only reason Tom Mendoza went to Notre Dame was because ND offered him a wrestling scholarship. Can't recall the podcast I heard that from but ND had a competitive program before Title IX took down the program. The Golics had wrestled in the program too.

Our friend in GE’s 8th grader just won state

by MattG, Saturday, March 14, 2026, 20:51 (136 days ago) @ Domer99

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Saw that. We were tracking it. Congrats to Ben.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Sunday, March 15, 2026, 14:34 (135 days ago) @ MattG

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I’m gonna drop down to 168... I'm gonna wrestle Shute

by cdawg, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 17:23 (139 days ago) @ Domer99

Do I know you?

Louden Swain. Thompson High

((See you on the other side, man…))

by Jason93 @, Raining debris all over Europe, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 18:19 (139 days ago) @ cdawg

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I think the children like it when I "get down" verbally.

Always enjoy some good wrestling discussion.

by San Pedro @, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 13:21 (139 days ago) @ Domer99

I watched a lot of meets when my brother was in high school and developed an appreciation for the sport.

My dad was captain of ND's team in '73/74

by Coach Gillespie @, Omaha, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 09:01 (140 days ago) @ Domer99
edited by Coach Gillespie, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 09:24

I love college wrestling and attend the national tournament most years. If you understand the basic rules, it's great. The matches are short and intense. The drama can be really high, especially if you know the storylines. If you don't - as most people don't - it's boring.

The explanation that I've always heard for ND's decision to cut the program was to comply with Title IX. Cut wrestling + add womens soccer = a male/female athlete ratio that better reflects the student body.

Is that true? I don't know. I do think it played a significant role in the decision. And I know that lazy Title IX compliance is public enemy number one for many college wrestling fans.

I'd disagree with Matt G. ND is not alone in dropping wrestling since the 70s. For instance, the state of California once had a dozen D1 teams. Today they have three: Stanford, Cal Poly, and Cal Baptist. And Cal Baptist is cutting its program.

Fifty years ago, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Florida all had good wrestling teams. So did Oregon and Washington, BYU and Colorado. Today? The SEC has none. The traditional Pac 12 has three (Oregon State, Arizona State, Stanford).

I don't know of a Power 5 school that has cut and then added back men's wrestling. The schools who've added D1 wrestling in the last few years tend to be commuter schools looking to do something different (ie - Arkansas-Little Rock, Utah Valley).

I'd like to think ND can add it back someday. But I think it's just below "gilding Stanford Hall's toilets" on ND's to-do list.

Drop in D1 Wrestling - Visualization

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Throw em out Marianne.

Stanford did.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 11:30 (139 days ago) @ Coach Gillespie

They cut during COVID and lost phenom Real Woods to Iowa. Alums circled the wagons and got it back.

True. I still have my "Keep Stanford Wrestling" shirt

by Coach Gillespie @, Omaha, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 11:35 (139 days ago) @ Domer99

Stanford alums and the broader wrestling community circled the wagons and helped fund the program. But I'm still not sure it would have happened without 165-lb Shane Griffith winning the national title (as the 8 seed) while wrestling in an unmarked black singlet.

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Throw em out Marianne.

I think it has as much to do with legal risk.

by MattG, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 09:26 (140 days ago) @ Coach Gillespie

Schools - especially big football schools - had an obligation to reach gender equity AND around that time in the late 90s three D1 kids died cutting weight. There have been reforms to keep that from happening again, but for schools outside of the big10 and big12, I’m sure that it seemed like a feed-two-birds-with-one-scone situation.

There are 80+ division 1 NCAA wrestling programs

by MattG, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 08:23 (140 days ago) @ Domer99

I’ve never really questioned this before, but how did ND lose wrestling, ostensibly to Title 9, while essentially no other school’s wrestling program has been affected in the last 30 years?

ND wrestling was largely funded by one private donor, and when he died they cut the program. It still doesn’t quite add up to me. It’s not that many scholarships - you could just fund like 15 more women’s’ scholarships in literally anything in order to maintain equity - and besides, women’s wrestling programs also exist.

There has to be an underlying explanation here.

I've heard a variation of Mark's story below

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 11:28 (139 days ago) @ MattG

I think Mike Golic has also intimated this was the case.

Mark here has a strong connection to ND wrestling

by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 06:58 (140 days ago) @ Domer99

I believe his dad was a coach? I’ll let Mark chime in.

Yes

by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 09:16 (140 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 09:22

My Dad was an assistant coach from 1970-1975 (while he was getting his PhD at ND in Math) and head coach of ND wrestling from 1975-1980. His final season, Emil T Hoffman argued the university shouldnt pay him for being the wrestling coach and so he was not paid for his coaching work. My Mom basically said that’s enough and my Dad stopped coaching bc of what Emil T did to my Dad. My Dad’s main job outside of wrestling was working advising students in the First Year of Studies and so he was trapped under Emil’s evil leadership. (Seriously, fuck that guy.)

My Dad could have left for another job, but my brother and I all went to ND for free, so he just sucked up it up. My Dad’s name also helped get an uncle and a cousin in to ND, so all in all we have 5 family degrees from ND.

We’re following this tournament pretty closely. My Dad is a big fan of Jesse Mendez bc he was from Crown Point, IN, a school I used to wrestle against back in high school. My Dad’s proud of the local kid’s success. I just want to know if anyone will beat PSU’s dominance. Seriously. PSU just had 6 or 7 kids win their Big Ten tournament. Its crazy seeing PSU w almost an entire team line up in the finals of a big tournament like that …

Historically, ND f’d the Bucky O’Connor family. Bucky’s son was a walk-on on the wrestling team at ND when he was murdered one summer. Bucky donated millions of dollars SPECIFICALLY for ND wrestling (in the name of his son … my Dad was there when the donation was made and had been the coach when Bucky’s son was murdered). ND waited for Bucky to pass away and went to his widow and talked her in to moving the money into women’s sports (specifically the women’s soccer team). We heard that Bucky’s other sons were upset with what ND did, but I’ve never talked to them, so I havent verified it. However, once that happened the ND women’s soccer teams started winning NC’s at ND (since they were one of just a couple of universities that had a full set of scholarships for women’s soccer at that time).

And yes, Bob Golic, ND’s famous middle line backer on the 1977 NC football team and an NFL hall of famer, wrestled under my Dad and finished 3rd in the NCAA’s. (He only lost to the national champion, a 365 behemoth of a heavy weight. Bob only weighed 265lbs at that time.) In Bob’s 3rd place match he pinned his competition. He was clearly one of the best wrestler’s ND ever had.

Lots of wrestling stories, some ND, some just the history of the sport are what I grew up on. My Dad’s a bit of a historian when it comes to NCAA wrestling.

My Dad wrestled on West Point’s winningest wrestling team and was awarded in to his HS hall of fame. His Dad (my grandfather) had an award for something like 60 years of support for Ohio wrestling. My Grandfather had wrestled, coached and then reffed in Ohio for decades (HS and AAU tournaments). My Grandad is in Ohio’s wrestling hall of fame.

So yeah, I know a little about the sport.

Very cool. All three Golic brothers wrestled for ND

by Jack @, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 14:28 (139 days ago) @ Mark
edited by Jack, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 14:33

But my classmate Bob was a man among boys in both sports, and was All-America in both - maybe the only All-America wrestler we ever had? He's the only guy to be first team All-America at ND in two sports that I know of. That guy had a chest the size of an aircraft carrier.

I believe Bob mentioned this on SBTB

by okerland @, The right side of the Bay Bridge, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 22:53 (139 days ago) @ Jack

I think he gave AC Slater advice on how to be a wrestler at Cal

I think Rocket was the other

by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 15:03 (139 days ago) @ Jack

Or at least the other that I could remember.

Rocket was an all-american track and football athlete, but yeah, its rare to see athletes at ND be super successful in multiple sports.

A quick google kicks out this:

In the long and storied history of the University of Notre Dame, becoming an All-American in a single sport is a monumental feat; achieving it in multiple sports puts an athlete in a truly elite tier.

As of 2026, the list of athletes who have earned **All-American honors in two different sports** at Notre Dame is exceptionally short, consisting of only **four individuals** (notably, all of whom included football as one of their two sports).

### The "Rare Double" Multi-Sport All-Americans

According to Notre Dame Athletics, only four athletes have achieved All-American status in two distinct sports:

| Athlete | Sports | Era |
| --- | --- | --- |
| **Edward "Moose" Krause** | Football (Tackle) & Basketball (Center) | 1930s |
| **Dick Arrington** | Football (Offensive Line) & Wrestling | 1960s |
| **Bob Golic** | Football (Linebacker) & Wrestling | 1970s |
| **Raghib "Rocket" Ismail** | Football (Wide Receiver) & Track (Sprints) | 1980s-90s |

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### Key Multi-Sport Standouts to Note

While the "Double All-American" list is small, Notre Dame has had several legendary "Three-Sport Monogram" winners and elite dual-sport athletes who came very close or were All-Americans in one while being stars in another:

* **Kevin Hardy (1960s):** The first athlete since the mid-1940s to earn monograms in three sports (Football, Basketball, and Baseball). He was a Consensus All-American in football but fell just short of the honor in his other two sports despite elite performance.

* **Jordan Faison (Current):** A modern-day standout who has made waves as a wide receiver for the football team and a key player for the **National Champion Lacrosse team**. He is widely considered one of the most dangerous dual-sport athletes in the country today.

* **Jeff Samardzija:** A Consensus All-American in football (wide receiver) who was also a dominant pitcher for the Irish baseball team. While he was an All-American on the gridiron, he chose a professional career in MLB over the NFL.

* **Paul Castner (1920s):** An All-American halfback who also served as a player-coach for the hockey team and threw a no-hitter for the baseball team.

### Academic All-Americans

It is worth noting that Notre Dame is a powerhouse in **Academic All-Americans**, ranking **second all-time** behind only Nebraska. As of early 2026, the university has produced **238 Academic All-Americans**.

[quote]**Fun Fact:** Edward "Moose" Krause, perhaps the most famous multi-sport All-American on this list, went on to serve as Notre Dame’s Athletics Director for over 30 years, overseeing much of the program's growth into the modern era.[/quote]

I was wondering if Moose did

by Jack @, Thursday, March 12, 2026, 11:06 (139 days ago) @ Mark

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Great Scholastic article on Dick Arrington

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Thursday, March 12, 2026, 06:49 (139 days ago) @ Mark

Never really heard much of his story before.

It's on page 18:

https://archives.nd.edu/Scholastic/VOL_0106/VOL_0106_ISSUE_0022.pdf

I used to see his picture in the ACC where there

by Mark, Thursday, March 12, 2026, 22:52 (138 days ago) @ Domer99

is also a photo of Bob Golic after his NCAA tournament 3rd place finish.

I should probably stop by and see if those photos are still displayed.

BTW, this is great stuff. Thanks.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 12:48 (139 days ago) @ Mark

Our school looked at possibly 2 Indiana events for upcoming schedules, the Carnahan Invitational and the Al Smith Classic. The latter being the one that Marcus Freeman supposedly got into the altercation at.

I have come to love the sport. In my mind there is no better sport for discipline, work ethic, accountability, endurance, perseverance, and sportsmanship. It's certainly way crazy at the fringes but the brotherhood and communal aspects are unmatched by other sports.


We see guys from Da Region fairly regularly. One of the Tsirtsis brothers coaches Mount Carmel and we end up seeing guys who don't wrestle in Illinois at Illinois HS tournaments wondering where the hell have these guys been. But once you start wrestling on the national circuit you get to know them all eventually. The other Tsirtsis brother is helping to recruit my son (fingers crossed).

Thanks for sharing all that, Mark. Really love this sport and talking about it with others.

There is another campus sport that could use wrestlers

by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Thursday, March 12, 2026, 07:33 (139 days ago) @ Domer99

People usually assume football players would make the easiest transition to rugby, but it's actually wrestlers and basketball players due to the aerobic, contact and ball handling demands.

I'm not entirely clear on how much university money/scholarships goes into rugby these days, but Coach Hickey has attracted a handful of Irish kids and a former U20 Springbok who was probably the best player in the country last fall and has them poised to potentially win a 7s championship next month.

It's been a pretty crazy journey from rugby being banned on campus for decades, to now having its own stadium and winning the 15s Big Ten title. A route back for wrestling might exist.

(I'll also note that there really is no reason, with the facilities, that ND shouldn't go full bore as a D1 rugby program. They are just as good as what Navy has. The women's team also has two of the most promising young players in the country).

+100%

by Mark, Thursday, March 12, 2026, 22:54 (138 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes

It always just a matter of getting the political support in ND’s administration.

Money seems like the easy part for ND these days.

Penn St.'s backups would win the NCAA tournament

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 11:25 (139 days ago) @ Mark
edited by Domer99, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 14:36

It's crazy what Cael Sanderson has done there. Interesting sidenote: Most wrestling fans know Cael went undefeated in college, collecting 3 Hodge trophies, and 4 NCAA titles. But a high school buddy of mine beat him in a regional freestyle tournament during his HS days. Yeah, that's not nearly as impressive because in freestyle you can "catch" someone much easier but it's still cool nonetheless.

But on PSU, their second or third stringer (Masanosuke Ono) is a world champion who beat Spencer Lee. The talent they have relative to the rest of college wrestling is nuts. But watch out for Oklahoma St., this year's freshman class is going to be really good. And David Taylor is building something.

I really want to see what Ono does

by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 15:06 (139 days ago) @ Domer99
edited by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 15:12

I grew up hearing stories about “Uetake” (and wonder if Ono can live up to that …)

Yojiro Uetake Obata
https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/41

My Dad says Uetake’s Dad had organized a tour of the US for the youth Japanese Judo team and they cleaned everyone’s clock when they got to the US. So in order to get better competition, they set up a friendly match vs Oklahoma St and that created the connection that brought Uetake to Oklahoma St.

My Dad also says Uetake wrestled his team’s captain ( ie West Point’s captain Bob Steenlage (originally from Iowa, a 4x state champ)) … and just destroyed him with a technical fall.

Personally, I think PSU should just be called the US Olympic training team. They have a lot of world champs hanging out wrestling with their kids. Its a crazy strong wrestling room.

Sanderson is ridiculous. Undisputed goat.

by MattG, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 14:30 (139 days ago) @ Domer99

It’s funny how Iowa state lost BOTH of the 2 greatest who ever lived to coach other schools.

I don’t have a ton of wrestling accolades to point to, other than

1) briefly ranked at 171 in 1993 bc I was undefeated at Christmas
2) have been thrown by both Tom Brands and Dan Gable during demonstrations at camps
3) lost several decent matches to Matt Hoover, who wrestled at Iowa and later won The Biggest Loser and married the lady who finished 2nd. Never once beat him.

I was the three seed in my sectional in 1994, with 2 losses (I think?) and (previously that season before those losses) ranked 6. My 171 bracket had the #3 at 171 and the #1 at 189, who cut 15 lbs in the last month to qualify at the new weight. I lost to the storm lake kid 6-3 and then he lost in the final to the forest city kid and that was that.

Oh also when I was a freshman Tolly Thompson (Janesville) decided to wrestle up from 189 to heavyweight against our absolute monster heavyweight Ryan Behr (Mason City Newman). We were way ahead in the dual so it didn’t affect the outcome.

Behr crushed Thompson, and later won state with (I think) all falls in the tourney.

Thompson later won NCAA Champion at heavyweight at Nebraska, and won gold in the panAm games TWICE and bronze in the World Championships. (!!!) just an all time great.

That’s the kind of kid who, after making weight at 189, decides to take on the #1 ranked heavyweight kind of on a whim. What a gutty move.

On #2) … Ha ha! … There’s a Capt America meme for that

by Mark, Wednesday, March 11, 2026, 15:17 (139 days ago) @ MattG

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