Umberto Eco on fascism

by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 08:03 (2709 days ago)

This is a 1995 article in the New York Review of Books. A shortened version of it had been going around recently, and I only now went back to the source to read the original article. This really helped fill out my understanding of fascism, its origins, its fuel of middle class frustration, and its bombastic style.

--------------

Ur-Fascism

Umberto Eco
JUNE 22, 1995 ISSUE

In 1942, at the age of ten, I received the First Provincial Award of Ludi Juveniles (a voluntary, compulsory competition for young Italian Fascists—that is, for every young Italian). I elaborated with rhetorical skill on the subject “Should we die for the glory of Mussolini and the immortal destiny of Italy?” My answer was positive. I was a smart boy.

I spent two of my early years among the SS, Fascists, Republicans, and partisans shooting at one another, and I learned how to dodge bullets. It was good exercise.

In April 1945, the partisans took over in Milan. Two days later they arrived in the small town where I was living at the time. It was a moment of joy. The main square was crowded with people singing and waving flags, calling in loud voices for Mimo, the partisan leader of that area. A former maresciallo of the Carabinieri, Mimo joined the supporters of General Badoglio, Mussolini’s successor, and lost a leg during one of the first clashes with Mussolini’s remaining forces. Mimo showed up on the balcony of the city hall, pale, leaning on his crutch, and with one hand tried to calm the crowd. I was waiting for his speech because my whole childhood had been marked by the great historic speeches of Mussolini, whose most significant passages we memorized in school. Silence. Mimo spoke in a hoarse voice, barely audible. He said: “Citizens, friends. After so many painful sacrifices … here we are. Glory to those who have fallen for freedom.” And that was it. He went back inside. The crowd yelled, the partisans raised their guns and fired festive volleys. We kids hurried to pick up the shells, precious items, but I had also learned that freedom of speech means freedom from rhetoric.

A few days later I saw the first American soldiers. They were African Americans. The first Yankee I met was a black man, Joseph, who introduced me to the marvels of Dick Tracy and Li’l Abner. His comic books were brightly colored and smelled good.

One of the officers (Major or Captain Muddy) was a guest in the villa of a family whose two daughters were my schoolmates. I met him in their garden where some ladies, surrounding Captain Muddy, talked in tentative French. Captain Muddy knew some French, too. My first image of American liberators was thus—after so many palefaces in black shirts—that of a cultivated black man in a yellow-green uniform saying: “Oui, merci beaucoup, Madame, moi aussi j’aime le champagne…” Unfortunately there was no champagne, but Captain Muddy gave me my first piece of Wrigley’s Spearmint and I started chewing all day long. At night I put my wad in a water glass, so it would be fresh for the next day.

In May we heard that the war was over. Peace gave me a curious sensation. I had been told that permanent warfare was the normal condition for a young Italian. In the following months I discovered that the Resistance was not only a local phenomenon but a European one. I learned new, exciting words like réseau, maquis, armée secrète, Rote Kapelle, Warsaw ghetto. I saw the first photographs of the Holocaust, thus understanding the meaning before knowing the word. I realized what we were liberated from.

In my country today there are people who are wondering if the Resistance had a real military impact on the course of the war. For my generation this question is irrelevant: we immediately understood the moral and psychological meaning of the Resistance. For us it was a point of pride to know that we Europeans did not wait passively for liberation. And for the young Americans who were paying with their blood for our restored freedom it meant something to know that behind the firing lines there were Europeans paying their own debt in advance.

In my country today there are those who are saying that the myth of the Resistance was a Communist lie. It is true that the Communists exploited the Resistance as if it were their personal property, since they played a prime role in it; but I remember partisans with kerchiefs of different colors. Sticking close to the radio, I spent my nights—the windows closed, the blackout making the small space around the set a lone luminous halo—listening to the messages sent by the Voice of London to the partisans. They were cryptic and poetic at the same time (The sun also rises, The roses will bloom) and most of them were “messaggi per la Franchi.” Somebody whispered to me that Franchi was the leader of the most powerful clandestine network in northwestern Italy, a man of legendary courage. Franchi became my hero. Franchi (whose real name was Edgardo Sogno) was a monarchist, so strongly anti-Communist that after the war he joined very right-wing groups, and was charged with collaborating in a project for a reactionary coup d’état. Who cares? Sogno still remains the dream hero of my childhood. Liberation was a common deed for people of different colors.

In my country today there are some who say that the War of Liberation was a tragic period of division, and that all we need is national reconciliation. The memory of those terrible years should be repressed, refoulée, verdrängt. But Verdrängung causes neurosis. If reconciliation means compassion and respect for all those who fought their own war in good faith, to forgive does not mean to forget. I can even admit that Eichmann sincerely believed in his mission, but I cannot say, “OK, come back and do it again.” We are here to remember what happened and solemnly say that “They” must not do it again.

But who are They?

If we still think of the totalitarian governments that ruled Europe before the Second World War we can easily say that it would be difficult for them to reappear in the same form in different historical circumstances. If Mussolini’s fascism was based upon the idea of a charismatic ruler, on corporatism, on the utopia of the Imperial Fate of Rome, on an imperialistic will to conquer new territories, on an exacerbated nationalism, on the ideal of an entire nation regimented in black shirts, on the rejection of parliamentary democracy, on anti-Semitism, then I have no difficulty in acknowledging that today the Italian Alleanza Nazionale, born from the postwar Fascist Party, MSI, and certainly a right-wing party, has by now very little to do with the old fascism. In the same vein, even though I am much concerned about the various Nazi-like movements that have arisen here and there in Europe, including Russia, I do not think that Nazism, in its original form, is about to reappear as a nationwide movement.

Nevertheless, even though political regimes can be overthrown, and ideologies can be criticized and disowned, behind a regime and its ideology there is always a way of thinking and feeling, a group of cultural habits, of obscure instincts and unfathomable drives. Is there still another ghost stalking Europe (not to speak of other parts of the world)?

Ionesco once said that “only words count and the rest is mere chattering.” Linguistic habits are frequently important symptoms of underlying feelings. Thus it is worth asking why not only the Resistance but the Second World War was generally defined throughout the world as a struggle against fascism. If you reread Hemingway’s For Whom the Bell Tolls you will discover that Robert Jordan identifies his enemies with Fascists, even when he thinks of the Spanish Falangists. And for FDR, “The victory of the American people and their allies will be a victory against fascism and the dead hand of despotism it represents.”

During World War II, the Americans who took part in the Spanish war were called “premature anti-fascists”—meaning that fighting against Hitler in the Forties was a moral duty for every good American, but fighting against Franco too early, in the Thirties, smelled sour because it was mainly done by Communists and other leftists. … Why was an expression like fascist pig used by American radicals thirty years later to refer to a cop who did not approve of their smoking habits? Why didn’t they say: Cagoulard pig, Falangist pig, Ustashe pig, Quisling pig, Nazi pig?

Mein Kampf is a manifesto of a complete political program. Nazism had a theory of racism and of the Aryan chosen people, a precise notion of degenerate art, entartete Kunst, a philosophy of the will to power and of the Ubermensch. Nazism was decidedly anti-Christian and neo-pagan, while Stalin’s Diamat (the official version of Soviet Marxism) was blatantly materialistic and atheistic. If by totalitarianism one means a regime that subordinates every act of the individual to the state and to its ideology, then both Nazism and Stalinism were true totalitarian regimes.

Italian fascism was certainly a dictatorship, but it was not totally totalitarian, not because of its mildness but rather because of the philosophical weakness of its ideology. Contrary to common opinion, fascism in Italy had no special philosophy. The article on fascism signed by Mussolini in the Treccani Encyclopedia was written or basically inspired by Giovanni Gentile, but it reflected a late-Hegelian notion of the Absolute and Ethical State which was never fully realized by Mussolini. Mussolini did not have any philosophy: he had only rhetoric. He was a militant atheist at the beginning and later signed the Convention with the Church and welcomed the bishops who blessed the Fascist pennants. In his early anticlerical years, according to a likely legend, he once asked God, in order to prove His existence, to strike him down on the spot. Later, Mussolini always cited the name of God in his speeches, and did not mind being called the Man of Providence.

Italian fascism was the first right-wing dictatorship that took over a European country, and all similar movements later found a sort of archetype in Mussolini’s regime. Italian fascism was the first to establish a military liturgy, a folklore, even a way of dressing—far more influential, with its black shirts, than Armani, Benetton, or Versace would ever be. It was only in the Thirties that fascist movements appeared, with Mosley, in Great Britain, and in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Yugoslavia, Spain, Portugal, Norway, and even in South America. It was Italian fascism that convinced many European liberal leaders that the new regime was carrying out interesting social reform, and that it was providing a mildly revolutionary alternative to the Communist threat.

Nevertheless, historical priority does not seem to me a sufficient reason to explain why the word fascism became a synecdoche, that is, a word that could be used for different totalitarian movements. This is not because fascism contained in itself, so to speak in their quintessential state, all the elements of any later form of totalitarianism. On the contrary, fascism had no quintessence. Fascism was a fuzzy totalitarianism, a collage of different philosophical and political ideas, a beehive of contradictions. Can one conceive of a truly totalitarian movement that was able to combine monarchy with revolution, the Royal Army with Mussolini’s personal milizia, the grant of privileges to the Church with state education extolling violence, absolute state control with a free market? The Fascist Party was born boasting that it brought a revolutionary new order; but it was financed by the most conservative among the landowners who expected from it a counter-revolution. At its beginning fascism was republican. Yet it survived for twenty years proclaiming its loyalty to the royal family, while the Duce (the unchallenged Maximal Leader) was arm-in-arm with the King, to whom he also offered the title of Emperor. But when the King fired Mussolini in 1943, the party reappeared two months later, with German support, under the standard of a “social” republic, recycling its old revolutionary script, now enriched with almost Jacobin overtones.

There was only a single Nazi architecture and a single Nazi art. If the Nazi architect was Albert Speer, there was no more room for Mies van der Rohe. Similarly, under Stalin’s rule, if Lamarck was right there was no room for Darwin. In Italy there were certainly fascist architects but close to their pseudo-Coliseums were many new buildings inspired by the modern rationalism of Gropius.

There was no fascist Zhdanov setting a strictly cultural line. In Italy there were two important art awards. The Premio Cremona was controlled by a fanatical and uncultivated Fascist, Roberto Farinacci, who encouraged art as propaganda. (I can remember paintings with such titles as Listening by Radio to the Duce’s Speech or States of Mind Created by Fascism.) The Premio Bergamo was sponsored by the cultivated and reasonably tolerant Fascist Giuseppe Bottai, who protected both the concept of art for art’s sake and the many kinds of avant-garde art that had been banned as corrupt and crypto-Communist in Germany.

The national poet was D’Annunzio, a dandy who in Germany or in Russia would have been sent to the firing squad. He was appointed as the bard of the regime because of his nationalism and his cult of heroism—which were in fact abundantly mixed up with influences of French fin de siècle decadence.

Take Futurism. One might think it would have been considered an instance of entartete Kunst, along with Expressionism, Cubism, and Surrealism. But the early Italian Futurists were nationalist; they favored Italian participation in the First World War for aesthetic reasons; they celebrated speed, violence, and risk, all of which somehow seemed to connect with the fascist cult of youth. While fascism identified itself with the Roman Empire and rediscovered rural traditions, Marinetti (who proclaimed that a car was more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace, and wanted to kill even the moonlight) was nevertheless appointed as a member of the Italian Academy, which treated moonlight with great respect.

Many of the future partisans and of the future intellectuals of the Communist Party were educated by the GUF, the fascist university students’ association, which was supposed to be the cradle of the new fascist culture. These clubs became a sort of intellectual melting pot where new ideas circulated without any real ideological control. It was not that the men of the party were tolerant of radical thinking, but few of them had the intellectual equipment to control it.

During those twenty years, the poetry of Montale and other writers associated with the group called the Ermetici was a reaction to the bombastic style of the regime, and these poets were allowed to develop their literary protest from within what was seen as their ivory tower. The mood of the Ermetici poets was exactly the reverse of the fascist cult of optimism and heroism. The regime tolerated their blatant, even though socially imperceptible, dissent because the Fascists simply did not pay attention to such arcane language.

All this does not mean that Italian fascism was tolerant. Gramsci was put in prison until his death; the opposition leaders Giacomo Matteotti and the brothers Rosselli were assassinated; the free press was abolished, the labor unions were dismantled, and political dissenters were confined on remote islands. Legislative power became a mere fiction and the executive power (which controlled the judiciary as well as the mass media) directly issued new laws, among them laws calling for preservation of the race (the formal Italian gesture of support for what became the Holocaust).

The contradictory picture I describe was not the result of tolerance but of political and ideological discombobulation. But it was a rigid discombobulation, a structured confusion. Fascism was philosophically out of joint, but emotionally it was firmly fastened to some archetypal foundations.

So we come to my second point. There was only one Nazism. We cannot label Franco’s hyper-Catholic Falangism as Nazism, since Nazism is fundamentally pagan, polytheistic, and anti-Christian. But the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change. The notion of fascism is not unlike Wittgenstein’s notion of a game. A game can be either competitive or not, it can require some special skill or none, it can or cannot involve money. Games are different activities that display only some “family resemblance,” as Wittgenstein put it. Consider the following sequence:

1 2 3 4
abc bcd cde def

Suppose there is a series of political groups in which group one is characterized by the features abc, group two by the features bcd, and so on. Group two is similar to group one since they have two features in common; for the same reasons three is similar to two and four is similar to three. Notice that three is also similar to one (they have in common the feature c). The most curious case is presented by four, obviously similar to three and two, but with no feature in common with one. However, owing to the uninterrupted series of decreasing similarities between one and four, there remains, by a sort of illusory transitivity, a family resemblance between four and one.

Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.

But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge—that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the US, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view—one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.

Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against “rotten” parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was “I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples”—“maniples” being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I bought one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five or six political parties—among them the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d’Azione, and the Liberal Party.

Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every country and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was discovering that in my country several parties could exist at the same time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parties could not have been born overnight, and they must have existed for some time as clandestine organizations.

The message on the front celebrated the end of the dictatorship and the return of freedom: freedom of speech, of press, of political association. These words, “freedom,” “dictatorship,” “liberty,”—I now read them for the first time in my life. I was reborn as a free Western man by virtue of these new words.

We must keep alert, so that the sense of these words will not be forgotten again. Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, “I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares.” Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances—every day, in every part of the world. Franklin Roosevelt’s words of November 4, 1938, are worth recalling: “I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land.” Freedom and liberation are an unending task.

Let me finish with a poem by Franco Fortini:

Sulla spalletta del ponte
Le teste degli impiccati
Nell’acqua della fonte
La bava degli impiccati.

Sul lastrico del mercato
Le unghie dei fucilati
Sull’erba secca del prato
I denti dei fucilati.

Mordere l’aria mordere i sassi
La nostra carne non è più d’uomini
Mordere l’aria mordere i sassi
Il nostro cuore non è più d’uomini.

Ma noi s’è letto negli occhi dei morti
E sulla terra faremo libertà
Ma l’hanno stretta i pugni dei morti
La giustizia che si farà.

* * *

(On the bridge’s parapet
The heads of the hanged
In the flowing rivulet
The spittle of the hanged.
On the cobbles in the market- places
The fingernails of those lined up and shot
On the dry grass in the open spaces
The broken teeth of those lined up and shot.

Biting the air, biting the stones
Our flesh is no longer human
Biting the air, biting the stones
Our hearts are no longer human.

But we have read into the eyes of the dead
And shall bring freedom on the earth
But clenched tight in the fists of the dead
Lies the justice to be served.)
—poem translated by Stephen Sartarelli

Copyright © by Umberto Eco

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

Were Trump articulate and speaking German tonight...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 18:00 (2708 days ago) @ Jay

And really bad at painting trees and also much shorter, it'd be tough to tell Missouri apart from 1930s Germany.

Good lord.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

This is pretty stunning.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 07:29 (2708 days ago) @ Jay

And I'm stunned I can still be stunned by this bunch, but here we are. 4 days after a white dude shows up and blows away a dozen Jewish folk. Not even an entire week after another white dude's bombs stopped showing up in the mail, directed towards prominent democrats.

Look, I get that folks take some offense to "the biggest threat to America is white men" thing, but JFC look at this. AND IT'S COMING FROM THE PRESIDENT.

I don't want "open borders." I don't want to allow criminals in or let them stay. But to even momentarily consider the idea that this "caravan" is full of murderers and terrorist is to let your lizard brain take over. It's pure racism. And it's pathetic. And if you don't get that, you're ages behind your time. Catch up.

We're wasting $150M of tax payer money sending troops to the border so they can basically do nothing. Even if you can't see the racism and the fear mongering going on, at least realize what a complete waste of money this is.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

turns out the guy was released by Arpaio

by Jay, San Diego, Friday, November 02, 2018, 08:02 (2707 days ago) @ domer.mq

and came back to the U.S. under Bush.

Sticks and stones may break my bones,

by ReginaldVelJohnson @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 14:22 (2708 days ago) @ domer.mq

but then we'll shoot the guy throwing them. That's how it goes, right? This is just bonkers.

Trump announced plan to limit asylum seekers, says troops will shoot at rock throwers

"I hope there won't be that," Trump said, but that anybody throwing rocks or stones will be considered to be using a firearm, "because there's not much difference when you get hit in the face with a rock."

Willie Horton ad updated to the 21st century

by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 07:52 (2708 days ago) @ domer.mq

And don't forget children, the democrats are the party of identity politics.

First, thanks Jay for posting a great article.

by Regular Joseph @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:53 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

I love a good cultural theory and who can connect the dots like Umberto Eco? Nobody!

tl;dr I think Greg’s okay and we’re all okay and it really is capitalism’s fault that middle america is racist.

I like Greg’s point about addressing the alienation of the middle class as the cause of fascism. As for how that turned into him making excuses for racists etc, I think that’s a leap. Like he was saying, I think the solution is trying to understand what’s going on in the heads of these people (I’m a member of the elite after all). I think it’s important to make a distinction between attempting to understand and address the causes structural racism and tolerating individual racism. We can demand an end to discriminatory criminal justice without demonizing the police as a class (though I do find it hard not to). Fortunately, I think you’re allowed to fully embrace righteous indignation toward individual cops for lots of things. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to change anything.

As for domer.hq’s point that questioning the systems we have received involves a rejection of Capitalism, I don’t think that’s a necessary conclusion, but, actually, I agree with him. I think Capitalism is implicated in the degeneration of our society and civic life. CK08 calls these inefficiencies. I would call them fundamental flaws. It’s inhumane and unreasonable to ask people to move from factory to factory around the world whether they are from Honduras or West Virginia. Whether the free flow of capital or “free” fossil fuels are the primary cause of our world of plenty, increasing inequality and anomie are definitely the expected consequence of uncorrected Capitalism.

I’ll agree with the spirit of Savage and CK08 in that political correctness can restrict honest dialogue. I’m suspicious of people who might accurately be called ‘globalists’, even though I’m friends with mostly globalists and almost no one I went to high school with. (Again I think this sucks, I’d rather not be alienated from my home, but then I’ve been somewhat successful in a system of global capitalism) I think it’s important to make a distinction between dog-whistle politics about George Soros and criticisms of systems. In a surprise to no one who has read this far, I feel very clear that the Republican Party is doing the former and that in today’s climate the burden of proof lies on anyone trying to do the latter. Although, I’d hope that burden is light for a poster on this board.

If you guys weren’t so awesome, I wouldn’t have books of things to say. (And if capitalism hadn’t invented the internet I wouldn’t be able to say them. And if the internet didn’t suck as a means for maintaining relationships, people wouldn’t get so frustrated with me…)

I feel like this is too structural

by Mike (bart), Thursday, November 01, 2018, 07:03 (2708 days ago) @ Regular Joseph

I totally subsrcibe to the QWERTY theory of racial structures in America (e.g., the potential gains from slave-based capitalism were so compelling that an overarching ontology had to be created to justify and reinforce it. Then, once that ontology was created, social actors began making daily, personal choices within that structure and efforts to re-engineer have been fitful ever since; just like the QWERTY keyboard was designed to solve a problem that has since become moot, but became such a dominant structure that trying to act outside of it comes at great upheaval).

That said, I think it is both exculpatory and dismissive to claim some vast majority of our voters have been induced or tricked or driven into Set X, Set Y, or Set Z of problematic beliefs (problematic as defined by us). We have a world awash in awareness, information, historical precedent, and visceral news events.
If people say they like Trump because of the things he's doing and the things he's saying, take their input seriously. There are differing schools of thought as to how to react to such a reality but laying out to someone that "you don't comprehend your own interests and values" is as inimimcal to democratic dialogue as I can imagine

great to see you posting, by the way

I don't intend to say to anyone

by Regular Joseph @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 11:28 (2708 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

"you don't comprehend your own interests and values". I'm hopeful about face to face interaction and I think people are capable of reflection and growth. I guess I am saying the mob is basically valueless.

I just don't think most people think or reflect if left to their own devices. I expect my friends and family to rise to this level, and even then I'm often disappointed. History is littered with examples of the depravity of the mob. The cynical manipulation of it by Trump and the Republican party is something we've seen in living memory. I think the most effective solutions are going to address the structural problem, either by reclaiming narrative space or constructing better counter-narratives and giving the mob another direction to run. It's hard to be MLK, but I think it's accurate to say that the media and the Democrats are pretty disappointingly bad.

The campaign ad above is truly disgusting. The problem is that it, apparently, works. I guess I've got a dividing line in my head between people I meet and the mass of humanity. Maybe it seems false, but if we're dealing with people who adopt these ideas after careful reflection then we really are screwed.

What if people do think and reflect?

by Mike (bart), Thursday, November 01, 2018, 13:57 (2708 days ago) @ Regular Joseph

At least, to the extent they consciously prefer to do so? I don't think it's "a mob" swept up in some type of mania, I think it's people earnestly feeling their preferences to be met.

i’ve been thinking about this challenge

by Regular Joseph @, Saturday, November 03, 2018, 08:54 (2706 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

and to be honest felt like I needed to step out and take care of regular life for a bit, but dang of i don’t like how you got me going mikebart.

I work in addiction, and one of the funny things about it is that you have (well i think you should) to hold a theory that a person is both fully responsible for their own decisions and able to will something different but simultaneously “powerless to their addiction” as the 12 steps say. The upshot of this is that in treatment we do our best to create structures that impinge on patient’s choice through drug treatment or systems of accountability etc while also working through counseling to empower them to make the right choices. People who mature into recovery sometimes reach a sort of mystical clarity about their flaws and capabilities that I rarely see and honestly envy.

I think it is appropriate to associate drug addiction - our nation’s drug addiction epidemic - and our nations right wing, nationalist racist, whatever epidemic. For some reason, the structures are in place for people to make terrible decisions. Someone might choose to do heroin or support a racist politician and I guess my reaction to either is the same: to attempt understanding, mercy, and help. Accountability is a part of that.

This essay came through my reading this morning and provides one argument for how we got here https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/how-hollow-speech-enables-hostile-speech-and-what-t...

I agree there has been a concerted effort to subvert the ability of our people and our society to guide itself and this has coupled with the rise of the internet and social media to allow for amplification of the impulsive and diminution of considered, reflective action. We need to address all these structures as well as hold people we know personally accountable to get out of this spot, and as we do, I’ll continue to hope in the growth of people currently adopting racism as a drug.

PS I would think the hollow vs healthy speech argument above would be more resonant on this board where most, if not all, of us aspire to or were raised with Catholic idea of chastity no matter how we fail to live it. I always find my reaction to a particular ACLU cause, as mentioned in the essay, a good gut-check on this. I always figured most people, Catholic or not, felt a similar whiplash with the ACLU, though maybe I’m wrong about that.

Now I’m not gonna say anything else until I’ve allowed myself to watch ND and Alabama tonight. (kind of addictive, yeah?)

well

by Regular Joseph @, Saturday, November 03, 2018, 09:59 (2706 days ago) @ Regular Joseph

Stellar

by MattG, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 20:10 (2708 days ago) @ Regular Joseph

- No text -

Thoughtful response.

by PMan @, The Banks of the Spokane River, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 17:34 (2709 days ago) @ Regular Joseph

I am an amateur at understanding concepts like contractualism, but it seems to me part of the ongoing disagreement has to do with defining justice and what is/is not part of the social contract.

Thanks. Will definitely read, & will offer a pop culture rec

by Albie, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 14:13 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

You may also want to watch 1982 on Netflix. It is an Italian "mini-series" set in the eponymous year that somewhat shows the rise of neo-fascism in Italy that helped bring Berlusconi to power.

I really liked it and the various storylines, but given what has happened in the US in the last few years definitely worth a watch.

Have you all read the Hamilton book?

by Grantland, y'allywood, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:05 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

Pretty compelling read this day and age.

Thanks for sharing. Excellent and very relevant.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:53 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

- No text -

"Mussolini did not have any philosophy:"

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:52 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

"he had only rhetoric."

That hits home.

It's the thing that has always bothered me about Trump. Above and beyond simply being a man with no moral compass. Then again I guess you can't have a moral compass if you have no ethos.

The "abc bcd cde def" bit was nice too. I have a lot of conservative friends who, every time I call Trump a fascist, find some defining thing about Mussolini or Hitler that doesn't match well with Trump to "prove" me wrong. It's maddening.

I wonder how much of Eco the writers of S3 of Man in the High Castle have been reading.

I feel ill. Every day I feel ill.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

That is a terrific article - and a topical addendum

by Jack @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:19 (2709 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Jack, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:52

It could be argued that if there were no Mussolini with his fairly loose ideology, there would have been no (successful) Hitler with his rigid ideology. Hitler was an avid admirer and student of Mussolini's early on. Interestingly, Mussolini once said that Mein Kampf was "a boring tome that I have never been able to read".

Addendum: I sent a link to that article to my sister who lives in Italy, and she sent me one back from the NYT last week regarding as assassination in 1924 of Giacomo Matteoti by Mussolini's thugs, noting similarities to the Khashoggi murder.

The article says the NYT itself was part of the coverup.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/23/opinion/jamal-khashoggi-murder-mussolini-italy-fasci...

Violet Gibson

by Bryan (IrishCavan), Howth Castle and Environs, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:11 (2709 days ago) @ Jack

This is a great story if you get the chance to listen to it.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2014/0612/647669-documentary-irishwoman-shot-mussoli...

Eco's theories have proven shockingly prescient

by HCE, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 08:57 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

I can't name another writer or thinker who better explains our current condition.

I see Trumpism checking a lot of his boxes

by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:00 (2709 days ago) @ HCE

Obviously we're not at the stage of outright dissolution of parliamentary democracy (vote, y'all!), but things like canceling constitutional amendments by executive fiat are a big step in that direction.

Eco's last two novels also dug into Trumpist themes

by HCE, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:15 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

The Prague Cemetery is about the (fictional) author of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and Numero Zero is about literal fake news (a newspaper never meant to be published) and conspiracy theories about the death of Mussolini. They're probably his weakest two novels, but they make for chilling re-reading these days.

As an aside, his first three novels (The Name of the Rose, Foucault's Pendulum, and The Island of the Day Before) are all borderline perfect books.

3-8, 10, and 14 seem particularly relevant

by CK08, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:15 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

- No text -

I'm waiting for Dan Brown's simpler and shorter version

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 08:28 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

I kid. Will read over lunch. Thanks Jay!

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

if you're short on time, skim about halfway down

by Jay, San Diego, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 08:53 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

where Eco lists out some of the qualitative features of fascism. Not every fascist movement needs all of them, he says, but these are some of the commonalities he's observed.

It's interesting that way back in 1995 he is already mentioning the internet as a vehicle for fascist populism.

Thanks, bud. A thought

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 09:58 (2709 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Greg, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:02

It seems to me the best way to stamp out ur-facism before it takes hold (if it has not already) is to deal with these issues:

Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.

The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.

Combine those two things, and you get to the heart of ur-facism's appeal to the masses. People frustrated because of economic woes and feelings of humiliation politically and socially due to the "ostentatious" behavior of those with whom they politically disagree. When you hear people talk about the NY/LA "coastal elites" you can (as people have this week) try to make that code for "Jews" but I have never thought that way. Rather, I've thought of $4 million 2500-square foot apartments in NYC owned by people who also own $5 million Manhattan Beach estates as well as properties in foreign countries. These people drive luxury automobiles, fly in private jets, and wear clothing that costs a month's pay for the frustrated middle class. To make the money they spend so callously, they do not make any product or provide any service that people see on a day-to-day basis; they dabble in "finance" or the entertainment industry or do something in the tech world that seems overvalued even to people on CNBC. They also spend profligately on both social causes and political candidates and tell the frustrated middle that those people in the middle have lost the "culture wars" and should be quiet.

Is it any wonder that the frustrated middle, being put down by these types while suffering economically, gravitate to ur-fascism?

I'm a root cause guy. Maybe it came from my law school class "economics of crime" but I look for how we as a society can stop bad things (or slow them) at their roots rather than blaming the last step in the process that led to the bad result. Yes, it is easy for ur-fascists to gather the frustrated middle by pointing to some outsider as "the bad" or "the enemy" but if we as a society do not frustrate the middle then they won't be as inclined to want to seek out an enemy.

So why don't we do that?

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

hmmmm....

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 07:21 (2708 days ago) @ Greg

When you hear people talk about the NY/LA "coastal elites" you can (as people have this week) try to make that code for "Jews" but I have never thought that way. Rather, I've thought of $4 million 2500-square foot apartments in NYC owned by people who also own $5 million Manhattan Beach estates as well as properties in foreign countries. These people drive luxury automobiles, fly in private jets, and wear clothing that costs a month's pay for the frustrated middle class. To make the money they spend so callously, they do not make any product or provide any service that people see on a day-to-day basis; they dabble in "finance" or the entertainment industry or do something in the tech world that seems overvalued even to people on CNBC. They also spend profligately on both social causes and political candidates and tell the frustrated middle that those people in the middle have lost the "culture wars" and should be quiet.

Sounds an awful like a description of our President, who seems to be an odd choice to lead a fascist-like revolt for the frustrated middle class.

my frustration with the frustrated middle

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:23 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

Is that this is seemingly an extremely entitled demographic. They'll demand the urban poor pick themselves up by their bootstraps, but they themselves can't/won't pick themselves up in virtually the same scenario. Nothing more emblematic to me than the state of Kentucky which likely most vocally decries Obamacare but is one of its biggest beneficiaries.

The alienated and frustrated middle class

by nedhead @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 15:43 (2709 days ago) @ HumanRobot

has no idea how good they have it. None. They are just about the luckiest people on Earth!

The rise in middle class inequality

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:33 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

has a lot more to do with the heartland's own anti-labor activists like the Koch brothers than Bill Gates' big ass house.

The formula is not simple

by Mark, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:46 (2709 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

Does it matter if its more A than B when both exacerbate the problem?

I think the point should be that the formula has caused a problem and no productive solution has been implemented.

How is that viewpoint, though...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:07 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

How is that viewpoint not a complete rejection of capitalism?

I'm a HUGE capitalist. Love it. Am convinced that it's a primary reason why we get to live in literally the healthiest, most prosperous, most peaceful era in human history. It's part of why I consider myself a "real Republican." I really like not dying in war or due to famine.

How do these, uh, "populists," who feel so frustrated and humiliated by the "elites," find a logical way to reject the elites while also enjoying the ability to own a 55-inch flat panel TV for under $500 while they pay Comcast $150/mth to watch Fox News so that Hannity can make ~$35M a year telling them how awful "globalism" is?

Aren't all these folks basically just saying, "I'd really like to give Socialism a try?"

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

I think it comes down to...

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:14 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

...not treating them like shit just because they don't hold the most up-to-the-minute progressive viewpoints. Combine that with some fucking self-control in conspicuous consumption and not throwing your wealth in people's faces, and maybe the defining lines between the uber-wealthy, the merely rich, the comfortable, and the sometimes-struggling middle won't be as stark.

So (a) please excuse my use of the vernacular but this fries me to no end, and (b) it has nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with self-control and trying to understand one's fellow human being even if that fellow human being has a different human experience than one. Our coastal elites (as defined in my post, not "Jews") seem to have no problem doing the latter so long as the fellow human comes from a culture outside the U.S., but asking them to understand people from the struggling parts of their own nation seems to be well beyond them.

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

On the contrary, we've been far too tolerant of bigotry

by HCE, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:18 (2709 days ago) @ Greg
edited by HCE, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:25

We've rationalized it and excused it to the point of relativism, both in our discussions of current events and our narratives of history. Bigotry isn't ascribable to class, education, or background; it's a moral failing, not a socioeconomic or intellectual one, and it's past time we start treating it as such.

I appreciate that liberal rhetoric can be alienating--hell, some of us are proper assholes--but these "most up-to-the-minute progressive viewpoints" aren't particularly new or radical. People have been fighting for these viewpoints for decades, even centuries, and I see no reason why everyone can't get on-board.

Some of them are pretty radical.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:38 (2709 days ago) @ HCE
edited by Savage, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:44

"you can't be *-ist against the majority/privileged/etc.";
learning a language and then speaking/writing it is cultural appropriation;
(separate but related: cooking, or even just enjoying various ethnic foods is cultural appropriation);
(also separate but related: little kids shouldn't dress as their favorite Disney characters for Hallowe'en unless they happen to be of the appropriate race);
changing historical documents to expunge sex-assigned-at-birth and name-assigned-at-birth;
equal rights and responsibilities (e.g., selective service, rape definitions, alimony definitions, ...) is misogyny, or at the very least an unbecoming reaction to the endowed truth that "loss of privilege feels like discrimination";
(separate but related: it isn't sexual assault when the male participant is the one who is under-age/in a lesser power dynamic/intoxicated);
the currently on-trend blanket statement that "voting Republican is *-ist" in any context;

(And these are just mainstream ones, I'm not even talking about the Tumblrinas or whatever they're called these days.)

... your fallacious appeal to longevity of the movement notwithstanding, this is the exact attitude that is alienating/off-putting -- "why everyone can't get on-board" the entire platform of what constitutes progressivism, which by definition is always advancing (and it has to be the entire thing, otherwise it doesn't count)? Give me a break.

Not one thing in that long list is "mainstream"

by Jack @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:40 (2709 days ago) @ Savage
edited by Jack, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:45

Most of it is lunatic fringe crap. Sounds more like a lot of conservative talk radio crap to me. Speaking of echo chambers.

To all: Some of it is certainly mainstream.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 17:18 (2709 days ago) @ Jack

How is the issue of retroactive birth certificate change not mainstream? It has been enacted (whether by legislature, bureaucracy, or court order) in dozens of states: https://transgenderlawcenter.org/resources/id/state-by-state-overview-changing-gender-m...

The sociology items (racism, sexism) are straight out of the "Prejudice + Power" idea ( https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power ), which, while controversial and not uniform, does occupy quite a large mindshare among the Left. (This is, of course, to varying degrees -- "when Gringos speak Spanish it disenfranchises Hispanics from their identity" is much more radical to the point of being non-mainstream than "African Americans, by definition, aren't racist", which is somewhere on the fringe, and in turn more radical than the near-universally-applied "when a woman cannot consent, sex with her is sexual assault/rape, even if the male partner himself cannot consent")

And then, of course, the "Voting R is *-ist", which is a core principle of the "Resist!" movement, and I suspect I wouldn't have too dig too far on this very board to find.

Those last 2 aren't mainstream either

by Jack @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 07:48 (2708 days ago) @ Savage

They're both left wing, which does not mean mainstream, and they certainly don't describe my views, for example.

On the first one, I really don't care one way or the other. It has no effect on my life, and I doubt it does on yours. Unless you think the bathroom thing is a big deal, which I most certainly do not.

As a Leftist

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 17:43 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

I hereby grant you the right to eat tacos and dress your kid as Black Panther (no black face though).

Heh, thanks :)

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 19:00 (2708 days ago) @ HumanRobot

D was a tiger this year, because we're lazy parents and his costume from last year still fits (we bought it big so that he can wear it to the women's hockey games and run around as an unofficial mini-mascot).

Also, if we're doing super heroes, I'm pretty sure he'd be Wonder Woman, because (a) she's awesome, (b) my wife's obsessed, and (c) easy costume to make.

My 4yo was Black Panther tonight.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 17:51 (2709 days ago) @ HumanRobot

My wife, a definite leftist, though not a far-left nutter, was pretty nervous about it. She'd read in some dumbass thing that it was appropriation.

But today after the pre-school parade, a classmate's mom thanked her for letting him dress up as Black Panther. She sees it as a wonderful thing that her kids see kids of all colors wishing to be a super hero who looks like her sons.

The appropriation thing can often get pretty nuts, and it feels like it's always liberal white people making the accusations.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

Awesome!

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 18:59 (2708 days ago) @ domer.mq

(And yeah, there's definitely something tricky about various social justice conflagrations being sparked by rich American whites. I mean, good for using one's status to try to make things better, but also sometimes weird because of their own slant on what the important issues are, or their imperfect listening to the victims of oppression on what help is needed/desired.)

I'm always leery about people who capitalize "the Left".

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 17:27 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

No doubt many of us here are Democrats, liberals, progressives. Has anyone here ever espoused any of the 'mainstream' issues you're pointing out? Also, have you ever personally been confronted with any of these issues?

I was trying not to use Democrats.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 18:52 (2709 days ago) @ Bill

(Unfortunate that merely the names of the parties have become bogeymen, but that's what I was trying to prevent. And "liberals" has too many meanings -- largely "anyone to the left of me" in a somewhat negative connotation, but also "classical liberalism", which is something altogether different. Perhaps "progressives" works, but it's an awkward fit historically considering the long-running conflict within the Democratic party of the "Blue Dog Democrats", the more corporatist, the socialist fringes, etc., where it means a particular segment of their party (and some farther along who don't identify with their party), which is something very different than just "A member of the Blue team")

On this board, I've only recently been delving into the political threads, so I wouldn't be able to give a complete history. But there have been several posts that are very close to "all Republicans are racist" or "if you vote for Trump, you're a racist" or the like. (See, e.g. https://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=367312 and https://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=393963 . ) And those are just the explicit ones, as opposed to the general discourse as we've approached the election that, to use a favorite liberal word again in this thread (this time more seriously) certainly seem like dogwhistles.

I don't think that trans rights have been talked about too much on this board -- perhaps some during the bathroom bill kerfuffle, but that was a different issue altogether -- so I have no idea where people stand on the birth certificate rewriting. On the sociological stuff, I'm glad that "problematic" isn't a word used constantly in every conversation around here, and I suspect that folks here would support dressing kids up as whichever superhero their little hearts desire, because, well, they're kids!

In life, well, I went to a minority-majority HS. (Without putting too much emphasis on what kids in HS say,) I can't tell you the number of times I was told black-on-white racism isn't a thing, with either the P+P rationale or some more rudimentary form of "no, we're discriminated against, so we can't be racist, that's how it works". And I'm an academic, so I'm surrounded by those "well-meaning college kids" and sociology Ph.D.s and the like as mentioned down-thread. That probably colors my experiences a bit in overrepresenting them.

Best not to characterize.

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 19:19 (2708 days ago) @ Savage

‘Both sides’ do it, no doubt. I think too many people use what they hear, rather than their own experience to describe the world around them. I know many, many people who voted for Trump. If I believed them to be racists or bigots, I wouldn’t have counted them as friends in the first place. While I think most racists voted for Trump, I trust my personal experience not to make the counter argument.

I don't see anything very 'mainstream' there.

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:02 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

- No text -

Some of that is pretty crazy

by CK08, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 15:57 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

But that's the radical edge. And I struggle to understand why that radical edge is considered worse by some people than the opposite end of the spectrum - which more and more resembles fascism (to bring the thread full circle).

There’s a line here somewhere

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:48 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

between what well meaning college kids talk about (the good thing, for example) and what the actual progressive movement talks about (which CK08 gets at down below)

The whole Megyn Kelly fiasco was a lot of fun

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:22 (2709 days ago) @ HCE

where apparently the statement "blackface is bad" is just the invention of the DANG PC POLICE.

Where are you seeing the constant put-downs of the

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:29 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

middle class by the 'coastal elites'? I seem to be missing that aspect of your viewpoint.

Erm, this thread?

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:43 (2709 days ago) @ Bill

Like Greg says, you can view threads like these as declaration at how awesome you lefties are at being human, leading the charge against troglodytes, dragging them out into the light of ever turning progress, or as evidence hiding in plain sight of the things Greg is talking about.

While I appreciate the comment

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:45 (2709 days ago) @ OGerry

I still have no idea what Greg is talking about, what these constant put-downs are and who is doing them.

Funny. It's some kind of "reverse dogwhistle".

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:47 (2709 days ago) @ Bill

- No text -

Let's try to add some clarity

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 14:09 (2709 days ago) @ Savage

I think there's a 'small g' grievance to be lodged by OGerry, Savage, script, Greg et al. that this place is a liberal echo chamber and, characteristically of echo chambers, tends to carry a laudatory smugness that is imperceptible to those singing from the songbook.

The question of whether there's a 'Capital G' grievance regarding this place is a hotbed of ad hominem demonization of conservatives, christians, traditionalists, etc. is quite a different one, I think. If we stipulate the "mainstream" of aggressive cultural liberal enforcement rhetoric to be as Savage describes it upthread, what is the stridency and intensity of this board relative to that --- 10%? less?

Would it be more accurate to say you find the consensus politics of this board annoying?

Maybe it's more of an anti-Trump echo chamber

by Jack @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:35 (2709 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
edited by Jack, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:39

And I for one am OK with that.

Most of my Republican friends don't like Trump any more than I do (a few do, so we talk sports). I'm just hoping they act on it and don't vote for him in 2 years. I don't care who they vote for or if they even vote at all, just don't vote for him.

That's how I see it.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 18:16 (2709 days ago) @ Jack

I will say, I'm not voting GOP until Trumpism is dead. It's simply not Republican. It's not. And it bums me out because I like Governor Hogan a bunch. But he'll win without me anyway.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

More irksome than surly.

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 15:30 (2709 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

- No text -

How up-to-the-minute are we talking?

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:34 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

Because if you mean "let's try to empathize with folks who haven't gotten their heads around the idea that all races of man are equal," I really just can't help you there. I'm pretty sure the clock has gone full circle on that one a few times. And yet there are still plenty of folk sent into a rage every time a black woman on TV gets upset because so many unarmed black men are disproportionately shot by police and/or sent to prison.

I feel like if we could just close that whole racism gulf thing, maybe we could all find some more patience with one another on other "progressive" topics.

As for the conspicuous consumption thing, I feel asking for "self control" among the elite is, again, a rejection of capitalism. I have absolutely no desire to see monetary flows slow down because it might hurt someone's feelings that a really rich dude decided to buy more cars than an entire neighborhood could use. I want that money to flow and flow and flow. If the elites don't run around spending a lot of money, we'd have some serious market problems, no? They can't just stash it in the banks and equity markets. Hell, that'd make the problem worse.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

It seems to me that there are three groups of people

by CK08, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:10 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

1) People who get really upset about "political correctness," mainly because the people that espouse political correctness can be really annoying, and also because political correctness keeps changing and sometimes goes over the top. These people aren't really bigots, but... Sociology PHDs with a lack of PR skills, combined with Fox News making it seem like those Sociology PHDs have actual importance or power, combined with many of these people actually being pretty economically comfortable, results in these people voting as a way to fight back in the culture war, and not with regard to their economic interests. These people voted for Trump and are now part of the GOP base.

2) People who don't care about the culture war, but are culturally conservative and live in places that economic decisions made on the coasts have hurt (and were maybe personally impacted by those decisions). These people voted for Trump but are very willing to vote Democrat, particularly downballot, and appear poised to do so this year.

3) Actual racists and bigots, who are emboldened by Trump, who is emboldened by the support of Groups 1 and 2, which creates a vicious cycle, frequently including violence.

Just as cultural liberals don't understand how they angered Group 1, Group 1 doesn't understand how they emboldened Group 3. Group 2 isn't really paying attention to any of these groups, and is just hoping to get a pay raise at some point.

And Trump understands none of this. He just understands that if he parrots Fox News, the people at his rallies cheer.

I think you're probably onto something.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:25 (2709 days ago) @ CK08

though I'm curious about the idea, "Economic decisions made on the coasts."

Which ones, in particular? Just the nebulous idea of "NAFTA?"

If folks are so upset about global trade deals, why don't the vote with their wallets?

I also find the idea of "hoping for a raise" grating.

Don't hope for a raise. Do something that causes your market value to go up.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

More specific than that

by CK08, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:41 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

Plant closings, foreclosures, longtime local businesses closing, chains that won't locate in their communities (or decide to leave), etc.

These decisions are made in board rooms by people who have never been to these towns, based on numbers on spreadsheets. That upsets people.

It also limits their opportunities to better their own lives.

OK, I get that, but...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:46 (2709 days ago) @ CK08

again, what you're spelling out - to my ears - is a rejection of capitalism.

It all sounds like an argument for business running in areas where there's no real market opportunity "because it's the right thing to do." Which sounds like a terrible way to run a business. That business would die. And then you still have no jobs/business in the area AND wasted capital.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

We need to do something

by CK08, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:52 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

that mitigates the geographic inefficiencies of capitalism. Mass migrations of labor are not efficient or socially desirable, so we need to provide economic opportunity everywhere.

It doesn't need to be a rejection of capitalism. But it does need to be things like infrastructure investments/tax breaks/public sector jobs/educational opportunities/debt relief/etc for economically downtrodden areas.

Trump, of course, offers none of that. Just an "I feel your pain", when he clearly doesn't.

What happens when you provide that and people

by ReginaldVelJohnson @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:31 (2709 days ago) @ CK08

still don't engage?

Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining

Despite broad consensus about coal’s bleak future, a years-long effort to diversify the economy of this hard-hit region away from mining is stumbling, with Obama-era jobs retraining classes undersubscribed and future programs at risk under President Donald Trump’s proposed 2018 budget.

In this regard, Trump is doing worse than nothing. He's making people believe they don't need to change.

Good article

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 08:22 (2708 days ago) @ ReginaldVelJohnson

Describes my hometown and upbringing perfectly. In fact, if I didn't know any better I'd have thought domer.mq was a relative of mine.

I certainly struggle with this issue. I hear Greg's point. I was one of those people growing up, eschewing those more fortunate who I perceived as flaunting their wealth. I called them "yuppies" and had a great disdain for them hoping never to become "them." But really, I had no reason to despise them other than I saw them as having more than me and that was reason enough for me to believe they looked down on me whether they actually did or not.

But my parents (especially my teacher mom) wasn't going to allow me to get sucked into the small town mindset that I'd eventually find a job at the mine where my dad worked. And you could see this conundrum brewing, a job that could once be had with no high school education was now going to someone that had a college degree. Not that it was required but that the mines could be more selective. But many people in my hometown simply expected to have these jobs available to them. It was almost an entitlement.

Fast forward 20-30 years later, and I don't think much has changed. There is now a bigger platform to air these grievances and maybe that allows the resentment to build and explode like we've seen over the last few years.

But to Greg's bigger point, I think everyone needs to strive for empathy. I really do. But having been on both sides of this debate, I know the frustrated blue collared miners need to do so too.

Saw something on twitter saying the "folks making $700 an hour are convincing the folks making $25 an hour that the folks making $7 an hour are the problem." So true.

We have public education.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:02 (2709 days ago) @ CK08

A lot of "real America" didn't see the need to work very hard at taking advantage of it.

A whole bunch of "real America" voted to cut funding of public education (particularly at the college level) so that even public collegiate education is out of financial range of a whole bunch of "real America" who at least bothered to get decent enough grades to qualify for college.

I'm not sure what else we can do.

We could talk about rural broadband access, but the entirety of the benefit of such things counts on students and their families using it to become part of the knowledge economy instead of watching Youtube videos while counting on a job at the local factory.

The more I think about it, the more I think the only real solution is governments incentivizing knowledge-based companies to allow for mass migration of their employees out to more rural areas via remote-work. I could move out to someplace rural, own a shit-ton of land and house, and not have to commute. Get a few hundred knowledge workers into a town and before you know it, you can run a couple restaurants too. And a couple gas stations. Another grocery store. Over a couple of generations, that might start to pay off. I doubt the Trump voters have that patience though.

Edit: I have a real bias here. My mother was a teacher for a number of years in a "real America" town, begging and pleading with students to find a way out of the town b/c that town's mill would eventually go away. Vast majority didn't listen. Many parents would actually get upset about it. So I admit I'm pretty cynical here.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

The article I posted above gets to your point.

by ReginaldVelJohnson @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:35 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

How do you get out of the catch-22 where people don't want to learn something new unless there is a job waiting. But companies won't move in until there's a pre-existing workforce capable of filling the jobs.

I actually do hope some sort of remote work...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 09:10 (2708 days ago) @ ReginaldVelJohnson

migration thing comes to pass. I'm not sure how to incentivize it. I'm sort of stunned that companies don't just want to do it as is. I look at our lease bill every month just for my small engineering team, and the rates are absurd. Add to that the fact that most of us have insane commutes (except the young, childless ones), and that we spend most of the day not actually talking to eachother (thanks, slack), and I just don't see why we pay for an office.

I'd be happy to live an hour further away from an airport if I didn't have to drive anywhere on a regular basis. I can't imagine I'm alone. If we could just make that happen, we break the chicken-egg cycle. Companies don't have to move into a region. They just have to let employees go there if they wish.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

To follow up on myself...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:48 (2709 days ago) @ domer.mq

What I'm getting at is: Isn't this entire "Trumpian" movement really just a bunch of "real America," saying "Uh, I don't like the American model?"

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

Your obsession with those nasty "progressives" is noted

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 10:29 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

Sorry some bad, scary people want you to treat everyone equally.

How in God's green earth do you get that from his post?

by MTIrish, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 08:20 (2708 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

- No text -

Thanks for proving the point

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:34 (2709 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

It's impossible to empathize with people who don't have a post-high school education from a top school. Gotta be snarky instead.

And you wonder why they don't trust you and wind up voting against their self interest and for somebody who speaks to them like they matter.

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

I’d prefer people use the correct pronouns when referring

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:55 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

to my trans friends (because, you know, they’re humans). If they use the wrong pronouns, I try to be polite in correcting them. Similarly, I want people to support my gay friends rights to live like me (again, because they’re humans). If you think that’s causing the end of society, then that’s cool, I guess.

To quote the great Ty Webb

by jcocktoaston, Thursday, November 01, 2018, 06:40 (2708 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

God I admire you.

I mean

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:51 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

There are millions of Americans without a college degree who aren't racist. I'm not sure why Democrats or frankly anyone should give a shit about the ones that are when there are way more non-voters* to pitch to. If your strategy is for Democrats to be more accepting of racism while also not acknowledging the policies that led to the gutting of the middle class then that seems like an impossibly bad idea.

* Either those that never vote or those that voted Obama and stayed home.

Also, the new Chris Hayes podcast is really good on this and explains how the racial sorting has gone since 08.

Do you want to stop racism?

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:10 (2709 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)

Or let it fester into fascism? Your call.

I can see quite clearly that my opinion on this isn't wanted here - self-reflection and empathy being hard, and all. So I'll head out and come back in a while for some football talk.

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

How would you propose...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:20 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

to stop racism?

I'm pretty darn familiar with it, given that I grew up in an area that started a civil war over it all while the living and breathing racists in the area all assumed I was in on the joke. It's possibly just a personal failing on my part, but in 1993 I wasn't seeing a whole lot of ways to get these people to see the world any differently. I figure it folks are still racists 25 years later, they're even more of a lost cause.

THAT SAID, I'm interested in any suggestions. Truly. Pleading with their humanity hasn't worked. Exposing them to cultural aspects of other races just seems to upset them even more. Having a POTUS who is black despite quite a number of early childhood lottery losses has apparently only "made racism worse."

And please don't read that as brow-beating. I'm genuinely interested in suggestions. I'm frustrated. Nothing seems to work.

And I appreciate your willingness to share your POV on these matters. I wouldn't have asked my original questions if I wasn't truly interested in the answers.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

Dude I like you a lot and think you're a great poster

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 12:13 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

but this post is bonkers! Let's not do the martyrdom thing

Mike, I enjoy discussing things with you here

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 13:26 (2709 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

But here's the thing. I've reached a frustration level with the lack of empathy for human beings shown in political posts on this board that finally caused me, as I walked to lunch today, to decide that I need to avoid reading and taking part in political discussions with people whose opinions I generally value.

So I'll talk football, beer, and other chitchat.

Have you had Von Trapp Brewing's oktoberfest? I can't recommend it enough -- had it in August and just saw earlier this month that it was named one of the best seasonal beers of the year this fall. Great stuff.

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

lack of empathy is a serious charge

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 14:03 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

I have a great many political (with, say, Hullies or fisherj08, or someone like script) and/or stylistic disagremeents (with Moco/Terp, fisherj, etc.) with folks here but I don't know their personal histories or personalities well enough to ascribe a lack of empathy. I spend a lot of time physically in and working with (as in, every day) individuals in rural and small metro areas who are preponderantly Trump supporters.

From what I can gather, what you are describing as lack of empathy stems from a perception that the members of the educated "elite" on this board saying they find the political beliefs of those types of people repellent. Again, from what I can tell, your stance is that it is crude and unfair to impugn these folks for their political beliefs without understanding the derivation of those beliefs, which you contend in large part stems from a reaction to the cultural hegemony espoused by our society's educated/cosmopolitan consensus.

If that's close to the mark I don't necessarily buy that it follows that anger toward or opposition to these individuals for their political beliefs must necessarily reflect a lack of empathy. For one thing, the formation of their beliefs must, at some point, reflect earnest choices as much or more than they simply reflect reaction to that which has been impressed upon them. For another, I think you are discounting the possibility that Hullies, MQ, whomever, can write these individuals off as political lost causes without writing them off as individuals. It is possible that they have indeed written off these people as individuals as well, but I think that's an aggressive conclusion to make based solely off their writing here.

Just wanted to say that - feel free to not respond and I will catch you on the flipside

I could be wrong

by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 16:37 (2709 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

But I’m pretty sure I’ve never advocated here for any type of exclusionary or retributional politics (in fact, I don’t really say much at all in politics threads any more). Quite the contrary — I believe politics is the result of material conditions, not culture, and therefore can be answered as such.

I don’t care about trying to reach Trump voters. I don’t really care about trying reach whatever people think the center is, after a lifetime of being told to sit down and shut up and take my bland, ineffectual Gore/Kerry/Clinton medicine.

I care about advocating for policies and practices that offer everyone equality, dignity and a stable economic life (personally, DSA gets closest). If a Trump voter doesn’t like it, I’m pretty sure someone who sits out every election because the system has done nothing but let them down very well will.

Rise like lions.

You realize

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:39 (2709 days ago) @ Greg

It is very easy to read your own posts on this subject as fairly condescending, right? Both to your fellow posters but also to those Americans who are apparently only ever acted upon.

Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism is a good book

by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 08:22 (2709 days ago) @ Jay

I read it in tandem a few years ago with Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism, and its an interesting pairing (I think most people really only have to read the last section of Arendt's book, although the first part was an interesting theory on the development of antisemitism).

I think it's important for people to understand the differences, and different dangers, between totalitarianism (oppression and violence directed inward) and fascism (oppression and violence directed inward and outward).

powered by my little forum