I used to run a very similar offense to NIU

by Larz, Monday, September 09, 2024, 20:02 (31 days ago)
edited by Larz, Monday, September 09, 2024, 20:08

Finally had a chance to rewatch the game. If I wasn’t an ND fan that would have been a blast to watch. FYI, I know the O and special teams played worse than the D, just thought you might be interested in some of the nuance of the NIU offense. If you want to reiterate that the defense didn’t lose the game, that is a fair point, carry on, no need to read anymore.

I coached the fly offense for many years and NIU ran a version of it for large chunks of the game. The fly offense has a receiver going in motion who can get the ball on a sweep or fakes getting the ball. The primary concept is to cause hesitation by distracting with the fly motion. And then run right at the defense as they try to figure out where the ball is at. When NIU didn’t run fly concepts, they used a lot of pulling and cross motions to create the same effect. In other words, there was a lot of eye candy for the defense.

ND was frequently unsure where the ball was and that caused a lot of hesitation. In the first half they tried to rotate with the motion instead of running over with the motion. A pretty common adjustment to the fly offense. Basically the guy covering the fly motion, doesn’t run across the formation with the fly guy, he rotates into a deep safety position and the safety rotates to the fly side. ND really struggled doing this, they seemed confused when they rotated and hesitated a lot. They went away from it in the second half.

The biggest mistake ND made was they got too caught up with the motion (NIU didn’t just use fly motion, they had a lot of guys pulling and a lot of guys going in opposite directions on their running plays to cause hesitation)

As a guy who coached this offense, I loved playing against teams like ND that were mesmerized by the motion. You could run down hill at them and even if you weren’t bigger then then you could absolutely maul them because they are standing around trying to figure out where the ball is and you are coming downhill at them. It is also a great way to neutralize teams with good speed.

NIU did a nice job with their game plan. I’m an Al Golden fan, but he didn’t have a great plan for this one.

Kinda reminds me of a Kelly-Era BYU game

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:32 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Where we were having trouble moving the ball, but in the 2nd half, started running a whole bunch of orbit motion (with Atkinson maybe?) that opened up the middle, and even gave to Atkinson once for a TD I think. BYU just couldn't stop it and the eye candy was really distracting.

Was that senior day 2012? Golson dinged, so we had to

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 09:32 (31 days ago) @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

go with Tommy? That was a really good BYU defense, but we survived that one.

Don't think it was Senior Day

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 10:57 (31 days ago) @ BillyGoat

Senior Day was a blowout of Wake Forest.

But it does look like it was the 17-14 win over BYU on October 20 when Rees took over for Golson.

Yikes. That was FREEZING for an October game then.

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 11:05 (31 days ago) @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

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Agreed - I recall there were some flurries flying around

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 11:11 (31 days ago) @ BillyGoat

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By the way, #1 is from Savannah. Beach High School.

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:20 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Very rough school.

He’s a problem for sure. Talented RB. Hope he has

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:30 (31 days ago) @ Grantland

Success at the next level

The timing on the fly motion was so good

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 03:27 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Even on tv it was tough to be sure whether or not the motion player was going to get the sweep until after the ball was snapped. I know the NIU team had a lot of seniors who have played together forever but the contrast in coordination vs. out offense was intense.

I'm surprised ND didn't start trying to dictate the issue by having an overhang player attack the motion guy. I'm sure the offense has a million answers to that, but for all our vaunted skill in man coverage you feel like it would have been worth it to up the aggression just in the name of giving everyone more certainty in what they were doing

I think I posted at least once below that I was surprised we

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:55 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

didn't do more to attack their offense. If nothing else, force the give to the motion guy and be prepared to go get him -- you know who he is and where he's going. Also, it's the riskier play for them. They have to get a tricker exchange correct, and that guy is running sideways in the backfield, ripe for the picking. Maybe we don't get him in the backfield every time, but you just need one per drive and they are way off schedule. And he's not Zachariah Branch -- you don't need to be scared of their speed. It was like one of those incredibly frustrating Navy games where we freaked out about the pitch and let them just give it to the FB a thousand times for 4 yards per.

As a result, the defense that shut down Caleb Effing Williams last year got eaten alive by NIU's RB. He was their best player -- probably their only offensive player of note -- and we let them use him to their heart's content.

That’s absolutely it

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:04 (31 days ago) @ BillyGoat

There fly guys we’re not dynamic. Have to take care of the RB, he’s the one who will kill you. It’s hard to ignore the fly guy because he is moving so fast and he looks dangerous.

It’s actually really effective to attack off tackle in that offense, because you get a little seam between guys trying to play the inside run and guys worrying about the fly. It’s difficult to stop when it gets rolling.

And yes, we rarely got them off schedule, which was a huge problem. We had to play their game instead of getting them in 3rd and long and playing out game

The key is

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:23 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

Not to over play the fly motion. You have to have guys responsible for stopping it and they need to be aggressive on the edge and tackle well in space, but the number one mistake teams make is too many people watching the fly and then all of a sudden a lineman is in your face as they run up the middle.

Your interior players, especially LB’s need to be disciplined and stop the inside run first. It’s almost like defending the option. NIU didn’t preset a major threat with the fly, the guys they had running the fly were not dynamic, but that RB was a problem.

As you note, it can be hard to figure out where the ball is. Part of that is the speed of the fly motion, there’s also little technique things like the fly guy turning when he executes the fake so his back is slightly to the defense at the mesh point. It looks like you are getting the ball and also obscures the defenses view of the ball. Again causing that bit of hesitation.

Thank you Larz. As I was reading it I thought "sounds

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:48 (31 days ago) @ Larz

like defending the option." Which hey.

Just assignments and don't worry about the fly unless you are assigned to him?

No worries! Absolutely, very much like defending the option

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:58 (31 days ago) @ Grantland

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Thank you for this.

by terribletr, Monday, September 09, 2024, 22:02 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Really appreciate the insight. I was telling my wife all game what a great plan NIU had. Haven’t coached anything like it but I love motion as a defensive guy thinking about offense. Well used it’s a killer.

No worries! Motion is a killer for sure!

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:27 (31 days ago) @ terribletr

In Canada you have unlimited motion with backs and receivers and we always used motion to our advantage, so hard for defenses when multiple people are moving.

That fly motion is tricky becauee if you play man, you are in a bad position if you chase it. But if you don’t you have to rotate your coverage and that can be difficult to execute consistently.

It felt during the game...

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Monday, September 09, 2024, 20:24 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Like the DBs were often really late to getting aligned to their assignments. Not just in the rotation you described, but simply the normal pre-snap alignment. And it wasn't as if the NIU receivers were hiding. I wonder if there was some communication issue or some unfamiliarity with whatever Golden was trying to do to adjust that was throwing them off.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

Yes, they really struggled with that. Totally agree

by Larz, Monday, September 09, 2024, 20:35 (31 days ago) @ domer.mq

I think some of it was the different alignments NIU threw at them. Subtle wrinkles that ND hadn’t seen.

We played a team once that ran the same offense as us, so you think we would be pretty good at defending it. But they had about an 80 yard TD pass to a guy that was uncovered second play of the game. Because we thought we had their tendencies down and we had an automatic adjustment based on a certain formation and motion. They broke the tendency, we made the wrong post snap adjustment, TD. We realized very quickly we needed to scrap that plan.

It’s very easy to try to get too fancy with your adjustments against this offense and your kids play even slower because they are confused or make big mistakes. That looked like what happened in the first half. ND had a plan, but it was not working and was creating more confusion.

The analysis of the ND offense is actually easier

by Larz, Monday, September 09, 2024, 20:20 (31 days ago) @ Larz

I fear we just aren’t very good in multiple areas.

Obviously the QB is limited in his throwing ability especially as it relates to accuracy and deep balls. I think that’s obvious

The Oline is a work in progress and really were up and down.

The backs are okay and I think will continue to improve but they are inconsistent as is the blocking they get.

What hasn’t been covered much is the WR group. They were blanketed again by the DB’s this game. If you watch the game back, focus on the WR play, you will see they are closely covered most of the game. NIU gave them zero respect as a deep threat. And the passing concepts seem very rudimentary at this point. A stunning number of run upfield and then stop and turn back to the QB plays that are fooling no one.

I hope they can show improvement, but the passing game has multiple problems that are difficult to fix. Inconsistent protection, a QB who isn’t comfortable in the pocket and is inconsistent and WR’s who struggle to get separation and don’t look particularly dangerous when they get the ball on the short stuff. Not sure how they are going to fix it. I’m sure the lights are on late at the facility as the coaches try to figure this out.

We are so bad getting in and out of breaks at WR

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 03:37 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Just literally zero explosiveness on any cuts, even with guys who presumably KNOW how do do it, like Mitchell or even Mitch Evans. I don't know if it's something they're teaching (several plays where it looks like the technique is "get into the defender and push off him to one side"), a physical issue, or something scheme related (e.g. we are trying to set up late breaking option routes and the DBs were muddying our reads and we just played slow), or what but it's jarring to see.

Leonard has a ton of problems with bad decisions and sloppy footwork but I don't know how anyone could get into any type of rhythm with the complete lack of crispness at WR. Collins does OK at times but otherwise it's really, really ugly

Kris Mitchell is a 1,000 yard receiver

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:11 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

He had no trouble getting off the line and in and out of breaks at FIU last year.

Yeah it’s so odd

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:28 (31 days ago) @ Jay

I keep waiting to go, okay that guy looks pretty good. Collins has certainly had his moments where he looked pretty good.

It’s a small sample size too, but there seems to be multiple levels of problems in the pass game

My guess (as per linked post above)

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:34 (31 days ago) @ Larz

is that the WRs really don't have any intuition about when or how Leonard might be getting them the ball. E.g., they aren't trying to get open in the rhythm of the play but they're trying to get open so Leonard can see them open and throw it. It's very messy

watch the Duke highlights

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:35 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

Leonard is extremely uncomfortable hitting moving targets. I feel like the majority of his completions are to sit-and-stick type routes.

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I'm a bad take machine!

The NIU game film is fairly hopeless

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:40 (31 days ago) @ HumanRobot

We seem a LONG way from anything working with him at the helm. Vision, fundamentals, instincts for the position all look so bad. It's all the worse because I feel like there's an obvious at-least-replacement-level option RIGHT THERE if you go to Angeli

check out

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 08:02 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

Drive 1, 2nd&12 from ND47 (12:01).

Very, very easy pass to a moving Greathouse. Way behind.

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I'm a bad take machine!

Lead foot going in the totally wrong direction

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 09:04 (31 days ago) @ HumanRobot

He had a worm burner to Mitchell that he threw off his front foot, too (among others). I'm sure he's a great kid but he straight up has not put in enough work on the fundamentals. Incredible to me that this is the standard

How did he win the Manning Academy with these flaws?

by San Pedro @, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 09:26 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

So many questions, bart! This NIU loss has really called into question everything about the program.

We paid $2 million for a QB who can't hit a crosser.

by San Pedro @, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 08:40 (31 days ago) @ HumanRobot

What else can we do but laugh?

Don't cry for Jay Jordan... cry for us

by atxND, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 08:59 (31 days ago) @ San Pedro

He blew his $2 million on Riley, but I continue to expend my emotional capital on this stupid program week after week and year after year. I'm thinking of encouraging my six-year old son to just stick with the Longhorns.

It's really strange. Terry mentioned his hands.

by San Pedro @, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:24 (31 days ago) @ Jay

Apparently, the rumors from camp were that he had difficulty catching the ball. Which is also odd given that he caught 64 passes last season. The whole thing is bumfuzzling.

his FIU highlight tape is fantastic

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 07:29 (31 days ago) @ San Pedro

Full of great catches downfield.

It also doesn't help when they don't make plays

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:51 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

That one opportunity Greathouse had really mitigated any deeper threat NIU had to defend. From that point on, I am not sure they cared about an Irish WR deep.

Greathouse has to make that fucking catch.

by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:55 (31 days ago) @ Domer99

Up until the last interception, that may have been the most demoralizing play of the entire game.

Once again our most twitchy receiver is a walkon lax player.

by San Pedro @, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:56 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

We really miss him. Greathouse is a 4th/5th option who is being asked to do things he’s not capable of doing.

Yeah. As improbable as it seems, Faison seems to be our

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:41 (31 days ago) @ San Pedro

best playmaking WR. It might be wishful thinking, but I don't think there's any doubt that the kid is an elite athlete. I think he has an elite athlete's mentality -- whether it was football last fall or lacrosse in the spring, the moment never seems too big for him, even as a relatively small 18 year old. I love that he plays lacrosse too, but I also wish he were spending more time refining his football skills -- because at his size, he needs to have some craft to his game.

That said, Faison should never, ever, ever be a top ten team's number one receiver. We are never going to have OSU or Bama style receiver groups. But we seem to be well south of, say, Michigan last year. And that level should be attainable for us.

Yea it really stands out. It’s odd.

by Larz, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:33 (31 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

We rely a lot on trying to run people off and then come back to the ball. But no one is scared of us running by them and so they are all over it. It’s just tight coverage everywhere. And the QB isn’t accurate enough to make those throws in to tight windows consistently.

I’m surprised how simple the route combinations are and how easy our WR are to cover. It’s a problem. It’s a small sample size, so hopefully things change, but it’s looked the same in the first two games for sure.

Denbrock may be surprised to discover

by San Pedro @, Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:02 (31 days ago) @ Larz

that Nabers and Thomas had an easier time getting open on those comeback routes than ND’s plodders. It’s not premature to call Denbrock’s preseason construction and first two game plans an abject failure. You’ve got to wonder how a guy who is allegedly a strong offensive mind could not see his receivers’ limitations throughout spring and fall camp. There’s no way these guys were creating consistent separation against ND’s top defensive backs in practice.

Hard to imagine what his plan for the season was

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 06:11 (31 days ago) @ San Pedro

It looks like he had a couple of shot plays dialed up Saturday that didn't get thrown (or did but shouldn't have). Maybe the idea was show something dangerous over the top and then start to layer in other stuff?

The running game and OL have actually been fine.

The pass scheme has been shocking

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 10, 2024, 05:59 (31 days ago) @ Larz

Weirdly, I think the infamous interception play from Saturday was the first time all season we ran multiple guys through multiple areas of the field.

I have a sad theory. We had some concepts we ran a ton last year: mesh, snag, switch release stuff, etc. that would be serving us really well right now especially given the personnel we have (especially given that we have a tall QB for the first time in forever). Most of those players are still around, Gigudli is still on staff, etc. but the biggest difference is Leonard. If he didn't rep that stuff at Duke then he literally had like 22 summer practices to get on top of them, most of which were likely dedicated to the Texas A&M plan. You look at how bad his feet are, how slow his reads are and understand why they are loath to add any more to the playbook, but if this is what he can handle then the season is dead with him at QB. I don't know why you'd be using this kind of passing game through two games (including an era defining loss) unless it were otherwise

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