Question for the Group (starts happily)

Assume, as seems very possible, that Michigan is in a world of hurt. That they're going to lose 12 games in the next 2 years and end up firing Moore and having to start over.

For you, would the hardware be worth it?

Or, put another way, do you care more about winning championships or playing at a championship level (or as near to it as you can get)? Would you trade one stupid (championship) decision for another five years of (mediocre) life?

Speaking only for myself, I care more about being good, playing well, being in compelling games, being a quality team, etc. than I do about getting it all to come together in one magical year. I'm pissed about yesterday not because of the way it impacts our playoff hopes, but because it was qualitatively awful and makes me feel like the wheels are never going to be far from coming off under Freeman. That we are very likely on the way to having a lot of crappy, boring football in our future

Anyway, curious, because I think the "random NC" dream is maybe still attainable for Freeman a la, say Gene Chizik, but I'm feeling very shitty about him just not being the caliber of coach I hoped he would be

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like Michigan has.

Good question.

As you put it below, I *think* I'd sign up for 89-93 instead of 85, 88, 97, 99, and 01.

That's four years of really bad and really frustrating football.

On the other hand, part of the ND fan experience is talking about and competing in the these sorts of number counts of championships, Heisman winners, etc... Is this a repeatable phenomenon where it's 2 titles a decade in exchange for 8 years of crap? I think I'd probably take that.

Maybe the closest analog to actually doing that is LSU, though their down years have been better than the ND years you cited. But I'd rather be LSU than Oklahoma over the last 20 years.

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tied in second place with Florida with 3 titles. Bama's titles were because they had the greatest coach of his era (if not all time). Florida won with Spurrier and Urban. LSU somehow won 2 of their titles IN SPITE of their coaches (Miles and Orgeron).

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Yeah, in a heartbeat. The way Michigan did it? No, I choose the other.

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pursuit of a title by an ND team that would do so by following the rules (to the outer boundary within the law) and making their kids actually get real degrees.

I have about as much respect for Auburn's title with Cam Newton as I do for the still-standing East German world records.

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Like, the Baylors and Aurburns and Michigans who cheated their way through kind of also saw their programs get blown up. Do you want the title that's going to also crater your program?

It was one of the remarkable things about Saban's Alabama - he had pretty high grad rates and really never got afoul of the NCAA.

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I suspect he did so with the same degree of institutional excellence that he brought to every other endeavor. These other slapdash efforts were sloppy get-rich-quick schemes by comparison.

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I’m 54. ND has won 3 titles in my lifetime and I remember two of them. I am in the camp of sustained excellence with a shot many years.

The thing for me is that the current state of college football is making me give many fewer fucks in general.

Why in the hell would anyone choose hard? At some point that is just stupid. Being morally superior while being the Jamaican bobsled team is ridiculous and appears disingenuous when you consider the clear money grubbing of it all.

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There was a lot of shitty football across the country last week and I'd guess that was in no small part because of the mercenary chaos at the upper levels of the sport.

But you're right. I mean, I don't care if I ever see Riley Leonard take another snap. Grab a clipboard, collect your check. Nice crossing paths with you. That's very different than watching Ian Book go through it and finally beat Clemson

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to start developing our own QBs again. Both because rent-a-QB doesn't seem to produce elite results very often (looking around the country), and also because it makes even a losing team easier to root for, because we're watching players grow up.

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I think if the stark choice was one “random” title interspersed with mediocre and/or frustrating seasons and sometimes good ones or consistent, high level football where a championship is within the grasp but doesn’t fall into place for a variety of reasons, it would be very tempting to take the latter, if only to avoid the sense many of us are feeling about the state of the program. Of course, one game shouldn’t make you feel any particular way, good or bad, for long and while this is “one game” it fits a pattern under Freeman that is discouraging. He really needed to avoid this kind of game for multiple seasons, even if we lost to a good team at home or a good team on the road. Because even if the team is not as good we thought it might be overall (understatement) it ought to year in and out be better than any team that the MAC can field.

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Freeman would have to win enough games to make the playoff, then win FOUR games in the playoff against the best teams in the country. That's very unlikely to happen at all, much less randomly. Michigan got lucky as hell being able to (A) hire Harbaugh (B) benefit from cheating and (C) win only two games in the playoff.

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… with one title season bookended by 2 trash years on either side. A title would buy 8 years of indemnity, no questions asked.

The cubs won in 2016 and dedicated themselves to doing things that were surgically dedicated to making me hate them. Divesting talent and cutting budgets and spending what money they do have on weird political campaigns. But still…. A championship

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Or did you zoom out while the bad stuff was happening? For me, I just love football and you can't really get the full experience without having a team that's yours. 48 Saturdays of shitty product is a steep price for a Monday night trophy ceremony everyone else forgets about by the following week.

I could be compelled to choose something like a dynasty to rival Saban in exchange for a bunch of also ran years. Like, Clemson's arc over the past decade or so would be hard to pass up

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I supposed, but I keep reading your question and just thinking "It's been a long freaking slog since 1988."

When I got to ND in 96, we were still telling ourselves that ND tends to win NCs at a clip of about every 11 years.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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is as distant now as our 1988 championship was then

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Is the alternative to the Michigan scenario basically post-2016 BK at ND? Because while that was a pretty good run it was also frustrating as hell.

And that one magical season with a title could always lead you to believe it might happen again, with the right circumstances.

Look at us now - we're doing the existential soul searching in the midst of a 7 year period that many programs would probably kill for.

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wins. The best moments of that run were front loaded into 2017 and early 2018, plus the 2020 Clemson game. It seems very clear that if you want thrilling and memorable performances in big games that Brian Kelly is not your guy.

Frustrating that Freeman CAN produce those indelible performances but my fear is that he finds himself in fewer and fewer big games because he can't figure out the offensive side of things.

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Harbaugh at M pre-2023? Harbaugh at Stanford?

At some point that scenario results in the frustration of "not winning big games" too, right?

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Georgia pre-2021, Oklahoma post-2000 pretty much, USC 2005-2008, Stanford 2010-2015, Ohio State 2015-present, Chip Kelly Oregon, those really good Dantonio MSU teams, etc.

In ND terms, I would be way more down for ND 1989-1993 than some sequence like 1985, 1988, 1997, 1999, 2001

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I get your point, but flags fly forever. I'm with MattG, dastardly Cubs fan that he is.

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I can’t even believe this is a discussion!

Do you know who cares about Michigan’s tainted championship? No one. Not even us, not really, except for the place where we are jealous about it.

If ND won the 2027 national title it would buy us 20+ years of being in the discussion, even with continued mediocrity. Frankly; I’m not even sure we are in the mediocrity conversation at this point though: it’s been a LONG time.

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I'd take a title even if it meant another 20 years of an uneven drought.

I don't think we are ever going to be in the situation where we could sustain a run of "threatening" like Alabama, Clemson (though that's over), OSU, etc. That being the case, I'll take the magical year over perennial "pretty good".

This is also colored by the fact that my teams have accounted for 2 titles in 41 years. I just need something to keep me interested.

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Like, if Willingham had somehow won the title inn2002 but then 2003 and 2004 unfolded in exactly the same way, but instead of firing him ND announced he was unequivocally going to be the head man until 2021 would you even still follow the team by this point?

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What keeps me coming back is the hope we might figure it out. The further we get from'88, the less I believe it's possible. I can't do the whole thing where people derive enjoyment from mid-table jockeying (like F1, Premier league, etc.)

So if I knew we were going to win and then basically "give up" by sticking with something that doesn't work, it's a harder decision. But I think the normal thing is that you'd get some wandering in the wilderness with intermittent regime change which spices things up (even if they don't work out).

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Going over the top at the cost of losing myself in the process is not a trade I'd take at this point in life.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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Let's say that in 2012 Kansas St had remained undefeated and ND had won the title. Then Kelly left for the Eagles and we stunk for a decade. It would be worth it.

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The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

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You’d need to assume a LONG wilderness period for it to become a real dilemma in my (very subjective) opinion.

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5 seasons? 10?

Say you had the chance to sign Ty Willingham to magical 20!year contract and you were guaranteed one national championship during the life of the contract. Would you do it?

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Except for like Georgia, Clemson, Alabama, the Patriots, the Chiefs, the Yankees, the Warriors, the Celtics, Man City, Real Madrid, Toulouse, the Crusaders, Springboks, All Blacks, Dublin Football, Limerick Hurling and a handful of others I’m probably blanking on, you’re best case scenario is already a championship once every three generations surrounded by mediocrity.

Some of those names will switch out over time and maybe even have good dynasties but it’s still not like championships are greater than 20 year occurrences for a median team.

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Packers, Steelers, Ohio State, 49ers, I'm sure there are a bunch of others from the sports I don't follow. Be as good as you can as often as you can, hopefully the championships follow but even if they don't it's still much more worthy than only trying when Michael Jordan or Derrick Rose fall into your lap

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3rd best all time by a mile. No titles. Even the trash franchises like TB and NO have
Super Bowls.

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I’ve watched my rugby team lose four European championships in six years, three on the final play, and lose three league semifinals in a row despite winning probably 90 percent of its games. The consistency of winning without the silverware payoff becomes its own gilded cage.

Better than being in the basement for decades, but beats up on your fandom in a unique way too.

EDIT: 49ers haven’t won a Super Bowl since 1995. I guarantee that drives them insane.

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The hypothetical isn't about choosing between the modalities so much as it is about asking how much discrete outcomes in one given year render null other years. Like, I think I'd have had more fun being a 49ers fan over the past 15 years than a Bucks fan, even though the Bucks won a super bowl.

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That’s essentially the bargain I made with myself about the White Sox

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I'm a bad take machine!

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One good football game is such a good thing, and one bad one is such a bad thing. You'd accept 19 seasons of Willingham level garbage for one CFP trophy? Really?

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You can say that 1993 right up until BC we were a top program. Nothing we have done since has come close to that level.

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Or care. They will know that ND won in 1988 and that Nebraska had a run a few years later and won 2 or 3 titles in 94 95 97.

No one will give a half a care that ND’s win percentage was better from 2015-2025 than Nebraska. I’m sitting here right know and * I * don’t care.

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People with whom we share college football as an interest certainly know that Georgia was an important program for much of the 40 years between their titles, or that Oregon is an exciting program despite never having one one

Like, are there any movie fans who think Paul Haggis is a better and more important director than Quentin Tarantino?

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I guess the people who won it will care, they'll tell stories to their family and friends, but nobody else cares. The friends might even listen for a little bit, the family will just be annoyed.

People care about today, national championships are about the moment. And ND doesn't have a mediocre program, it's probably top-20 and "pretty good". Nebraska might be top-50 and is mediocre.

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Are you really happy getting teased every season and then bested by better programs indefinitely?

Just winning one, during that timeframe, proves that it’s possible. The possibility - the potential of that moment is the only reason any of us do any of this. Keep that tantalizing possibility alive. It’s getting pretty fucking grim in ND land and Michigan winning one does not help.

Flags fly forever. No one will remember if the team was 10-2 and lost in the title game; or 8-3 or 6-6. Or 3-9. Not even the players or their parents. Time burns everything except the trophies in the case.

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I'd like ND to win one again before I die, as long as we don't cheat to do it. It would be nice to have a period of dominance but I'll take a lucky year. My dad was an undergrad at ND from '46 to '49 and he frequently commented that he never saw ND lose. He always had that, regardless of what happened afterwards. I just want one.

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I'm in it for the dramatics, the strategy and tactics, the cultural clashes, the really positive stuff I think a good football program can inculcate (effort, cooperation, toughness, responsibility, etc.), entertainment of course.

If I were part of a team, or part of the university administration, I'd maybe be motivated a lot more about the hardware aspect but mainly I want as much great football as can be mustered, especially by sympathetic protagonists

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I love football, and ND college football particularly. I suffer no real harm to my legacy or my psyche if ND doesn't win championships. I'd much rather have a consistently competitive, interesting team to follow, even if they don't win championships.

As you say, if I were involved directly in the team in some way, then my opinion might be different.

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I think the children like it when I "get down" verbally.

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They spent 2021 as a Return to Glory for their nigh disgraced hero coach who was on his last chance before termination, cathartically beating Ohio State by emasculating them in the snow.

2022 was a resounding validation, including completely smoking Ohio State in the Horseshoe

2023 the guys on the Victors Board spent writing thousands of threads doing exegesis on the NCAA bylaws rule book trying to convince themselves they hadn't been cheating the whole time. They also had the dullest on field season of any champion I can remember, a whole season spent in loss aversion crisis. I'm sure the Rose Bowl game was an all time but on the whole it really feels like the least exciting season of the three for a top tier interest person. And now they're the 1999 Bulls

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Couldn't be happier.

Half dozen folks who absolutely love having won a NC. Full stop.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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One in particular saw Saturday's ugly loss coming in advance and wasn't that upset about it. That's the peace of mind winning a title gives you.

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Go over to their version of TPG and there are long threads about Moore being fired after 2 seasons and oncoming dark ages

https://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1725917934.4534&user=...

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the Polo Grounds

Question for the Group (starts happily)

I certainly wouldn't take an asterisk title

LSU is weird. Over the last 30 years, they are (I think)

Win one without an asterisk?

Right. I find this whole thing compelling because of the

And it's kind of a self-fulfilling bit, right?

If Saban was cheating (and not saying he was)

Semi-hijack

It's worth monitoring

I would really like us

This is an excellent thought exercise

There will be no more random NCs

D. In a playoff without Georgia.

One title. I would be extremely happy

Did you follow them closely all that while post-2016?

Yeah, pretty much every day

This doesn't really answer your question...

Urban Meyer's first championship

ND's last championship was closer to Cleopatra...

Just curious

No, because it became clear Kelly couldn't produce great

Do you have an example of what the alternative looks like?

A bunch

Fair enough. That's what I figured

Flags fly forever.

Without hesitation.

Would you still stay invested?

Well, that's changing the hypothetical a bit.

I'd rather be good and hold onto my principals

Assume you get to keep your principles in either case

OK, but that's not the Michigan scenario

Title.

What's long?

That’s practically every sports team already

Win forever is the goal in my mind

The team you’re suggesting is the Vikings

You just get driven mad by a different problem

Sounds engaging though

Probably

Baseball is so easy to ignore though

We’ve been a middling to garbage program for 25 years

30 at least

Well we aren't Nebraska either.

True. We are still relevant and our coach doesn't do meth.

30 years from now no one will know the difference

Who are we talking about?

Nobody will care about the national championships either

Absolutely and without hesitation

I'm with you.

Yeah but it's someone else's legacy, it's my hobby

As a subway, this is my feeling in spades.

Think about the Michigan fans

The Michigan fans who are friends of mine...

Same here

Those are normals