John's German city reviews

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Tuesday, June 11, 2024, 18:43 (242 days ago)
edited by Jay, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 07:13

Background: https://bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=530806

Leipzig: This was home. I adore it. Probably wouldn't hold your attention for more than 3-4 days as pure tourists, but it's a near-perfect place to live for a while. (Unless you need to find a proper Catholic mass, which, well ...) Highlights:

  • Zoo Leipzig, which is truly world-class and takes at least 3-4 visits before you've begun to see it all.
  • Thomaskirche and Nioklaikirche, both in the beautiful historic part of the city, which has great restaurants and shops and is largely free of cars. (Though, it's not a proper medieval quarter like in a city like Bremen.) Thomaskirche is where Bach lived and worked, and his grave is in the sanctuary, and Nikolaikirche was central in the anti-Soviet protests of 1989. Both churches host concerts most every evening, many of them free. There are good walking tours that will lead you around this area and teach you a lot of history, plus help you find other places you'll want to check out.
  • The Volkerschlachtsdenkmal ("Monument to the Battle of the Nations"), which is on the outskirts of the city and *must* be seen and climbed. Background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Battle_of_the_Nations.

General tips: great tram system; extremely bike-friendly city; beautiful parks and playgrounds; there are places where you will need to pay in cash; the food is incredibly cheap unless you are eating at very fancy places; plenty of people -- including vendors -- don't speak English, so have a good translation app handy.

Berlin: It's too big of a city for me. We rode the tour bus and visited the zoo, which is great. I'd been once before, but still it would take me a long time to get my bearings here. That's not to knock it, though -- this is just a personal preference.

Cologne: Pretty gritty, at least by German standards. The Dom is amazing, but most everything else around it was torn down after the war. There is a good zoo and a lovely botanical garden, and it's fun to walk the bridge across the Rhine from the cathedral, then go up the river and take the Seilbahn (basically a cable car) back to the other side. We visited the church that has Albert the Great buried in its crypt, and near there is a beautiful memorial to Edith Stein that's right along the city sidewalk. If you're going to visit I'd consider staying in Bonn, which is older and prettier and just a short train ride to the south.

Bamberg: This tiny medieval city is basically a postcard. A tourist trap, sure, but the topography is amazing and there are some beautiful churches, including a 13th-century cathedral with a very nice museum attached. We were there for just a day, as we stopped there on our way from a different city into Leipzig. Possibly my wife's favorite place we visited.

Dresden: I didn't love visiting Dresden. It's the site of an unforgivable crime against humanity, and that hangs in the air for me. Still, the rebuilt old city is pretty spectacular, and it's amazing to think of what has gone into its reconstruction. I visited one of the palaces with my kids. We'll return for sure if we are back in the area.

Bremen: This was a surprise -- maybe my favorite place we stopped and stayed. It's in the north of Germany, near where the river that runs through it empties into the North Sea. The houses along the river are beautiful and the medieval quarter is a treat. There was a street there where my 8-year-old daughter could reach with her hands to the buildings on each side. Loved it.

Tübingen: Another amazing medieval city with spectacular topography. I was doing things at the university, and meanwhile my kids had an absolutely legendary couple of days at the public pool there. Getting lost in the old streets is a trip. My sons and I were staying in an apartment that was across the hills from the main part of the city, which we'd access through a cycling tunnel that went right through the mountain. Five stars.

Zürich: Right, it is not in Germany. But it is still one of my favorite cities in the world. Pro tip #1: Most everything in Zürich is unbelievably expensive, but you can take a genuinely cheap, and very relaxing, boat trip around Lake Zürich by riding the public ferry: https://www.zsg.ch/en/timetable-prices. Pro tip #2: We stayed at an incredibly fun and family-friendly Vrbo in a small Swiss village about 45 minutes north of Zürich by train, not far from the Rheinfall (which is amazing ......). Drop me a line if you want the link.

Tags:
travel

I found Berlin an incredibly heavy city

by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 05:21 (241 days ago) @ professor

Some of that was due to when I visited -- in the dead of winter in 2002, during the run up to the Iraq War and significant unrest between native Germans and immigrants Turks.

But you'd be out for a walk in the Tiergarten or looking for a place to get a beer, and suddenly you'd be face to face with Soviet tanks, the foundation of the SS headquarters or a parade ground used for Nazi rallies.

It was fascinating from a history perspective, but on a human level it was pretty overwhelming.

Perfect description and it's the same in the summer

by Jack @, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 08:55 (240 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
edited by Jack, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 09:12

You have to consciously get away from Nazis and Communists or you do get overwhelmed and can forget there's a vibrant, living city there. There are reminders everywhere. Even in the former western zone there's the Soviet War Memorial right across the Avenue des 17 Juni from the Tiergarten. Where we stayed a couple blocks off the Kurfürstendamm (which is like Fifth Avenue for the most part), right down the street is the the bombed out Kaiser Wilhelm church.

But there were things I wanted to see forever that we went to, such as the Bendlerblock museum of the German Resistance and the Stauffenberg memorial, the Reichstag, Karl-Marx Allee, the Wall museum, the Stasi building, the Holocaust Memorial and a day trip to Sachsenhausen (I'd been to Dachau but my wife had not and wanted a concentration camp tour). On the next trip (and I hope there is one), I would concentrate much more on the modern city. While we did see some of it, we left an awful lot on the table including the great museums.

I was in Berchtesgaden today

by Dylan, Indianapolisish, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 06:30 (240 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes

Could not stomach the idea of going to the Eagle’s Nest. The whole area creeped me out.

Was same when I was there. Not interested in Eagle’s Nest

by Jack @, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 08:50 (240 days ago) @ Dylan
edited by Jack, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 16:22

Also, Hitler was only there something like twice. From what I've heard from others who have been there, it's a house that isn't interesting but has a spectacular view, but there are plenty of places for spectacular views in those parts. It's not the living quarters with the balcony that's in so many pictures and "home movies". That was torn down by the Army not long after the war as they wanted to get rid of anything that could be considered a memorial to Hitler or any of the top Nazis (e.g. Goering's house was demolished also).

The bunker tour was fascinating, though, and the Obersalzburg WWII Memorial museum was outstanding.

This is just what my first trip to Berlin felt like.

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 06:00 (241 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes

I was at a conference out by the Free University, which is in a very nice sub-urban area, and then had just a half a day in the city center before flying home. The taxi dropped me off by the Holocaust Memorial and I totally broke down, then when I recovered I went down to the area around the Brandenburg Gate and was mostly just overwhelmed by the total destruction that had been wrought during the war, as almost all the buildings are so contemporary. It was a heavy morning.

This second time around, I was able to take a different perspective and enjoy more of what the city has to offer.

Outstanding - I've copied and saved this. Regarding Berlin

by Jack @, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 09:57 (241 days ago) @ professor
edited by Jack, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:09

It is personal preference, and for me, I love big mega-cities, so to each his own. I've also got a particular interest in WWII history and have read books on the Battle for Berlin and Cold War Berlin, so it was a bucket list trip for me. I've certainly been nowhere else like it, and would go back to explore more in a heartbeat.

It's a fascinating city in so many ways. I wouldn't call it a beautiful city, though there are parts that are beautiful - the Tiergarten is one of the great urban parks in the world, for example, just fabulous (since the zoo is there, you've obviously seen it already).

One suggestion I would make is, that because the city is so big and sprawling, book some good walking tours that are for different aspects of the city. The ones we booked there through Get Your Guide were some of the best I've been on anywhere. Because public transportation there is so good between the U-bahn and the S-bahn, the tours can cover a lot a lot of ground (physically) within a few hours. The 4-hour Cold War tour we took in particular was as good as I could have possibly have hoped for.

Bus tours in very large cities for me are for initial orientation, and can be really worthwhile for that purpose - then it's time to explore on foot.

Agree. We loved Berlin.

by Albie, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 11:22 (241 days ago) @ Jack

And in case you have missed me beating this dead horse here before, check out the Bernie Gunther historical crime fiction set in Berlin by Philip Kerr. I actually took the Bernie Guntehr Tour in Berlin when we went and it was very good.

I read a handful of them

by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Thursday, June 13, 2024, 05:17 (241 days ago) @ Albie

But after a while, the whole thing started to feel a bit too prurient, and almost reveling in the depravity. I don't think that was Kerr's intent or anything, but I think it's easier for self-contained movies or one-off books to enter a world like that and not overwhelm the audience or just glom too much ghastliness into a single protagonist's life. It gave me the same feeling I got as when they burned that kid alive in Game of Thrones (although I think Martin and co. actually do revel in the depravity).

I started them based on your recommendation….

by bk, The Worst City in America, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 12:55 (241 days ago) @ Albie

They’re very good. Not sure how accurate they are (though they seem detailed in a way that suggests historical accuracy on details), but they give a pretty good sense of what it was like to live through various times in and around Germany.

Cool. I am holding out on his last book as long as I can.

by Albie, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 13:26 (241 days ago) @ bk

Our guide for the Bernie Gunther tour was a non-German (a Brit who had spent some of his youth in the US) who had lived in Berlin for years. He said it was pretty accurate about Berlin but felt it was too clearly written by a Brit. In other words, Bernie was really a British cop in his humor and sensibility. A German detective would never do and say the things he did. Anyway, I still love the books. Still hoping Tom Hanks produces a miniseries on it (Michael Fassbender would be perfect), but Babylon Berlin may have squashed that.

Speaking of BB, the new season (#4) should be available on MHz by now.

As an aside, our Cold War tour guide was a Brit

by Jack @, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 13:46 (241 days ago) @ Albie

from Liverpool who sounded like Ringo Starr.

He's a history professor who has been living in Berlin for over ten years and does the tours as freelance contractor, as many do. It was one of the best tours I've ever taken anywhere.

My sister has read the Bernie Guenther books and has highly recommended them also, so I'll have to check them out.

Thanks.

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:07 (241 days ago) @ Jack

It was my second Berlin trip in about a year, and I enjoyed it more than the first. Along with the zoo, the highlight was a reception in Schloss Bellevue, which is the residence of the Federal President, for fellowship recipients and their families. I hope we'll be back, and I'm sure we will enjoy it that much more next time.

terrific

by Jay @, San Diego, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 07:11 (241 days ago) @ professor

What brought you to Leipzig? Were you researching/teaching?

Research.

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 07:45 (241 days ago) @ Jay

I have a fellowship based at the University of Leipzig. It's broken up into a few summer-length stints, and we hope to go back next year as long as the family dynamics can be sorted out.

excellent

by Jay @, San Diego, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 08:27 (241 days ago) @ professor
edited by Jay, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:32

We were supposed to be in northern Germany for my wife's family's international reunion in July of this year, but can't make it for various reasons. Was looking forward to seeing Hamburg again, and we had Bremen on the visit list as well as some other possibilities. I haven't been there since I was a backpacking student.

The nice thing about northern Germany is that if you have studied any textbook, classroom Deutsch you can actually understand what people are saying.

Question for you on the language

by Jack @, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:13 (241 days ago) @ Jay

I've had a years-long personal project of trying to learn German, sporadically, without a lot of success, but I'm still plugging away -

Anyway, when you were in Innsbruck first learning the language, did you find that textbook German varied a lot from Austrian German?

My highschool German is rusty but I can get by in Leipzig.

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:26 (241 days ago) @ Jack

The first time I was in a southern city, for a conference in Konstanz, I was pretty much hopeless due to the difference in dialect.

different dialect, different pronunciation, different slang

by Jay @, San Diego, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 10:25 (241 days ago) @ Jack

I had never taken German before signing up for Innsbruck, so I had to take a year-long intensive (5 days/week) German at ND freshman year to prep. Then we got to Austria and it was like somebody had been playing a big joke on us. Nothing worked. After sinking/swimming for a few months it finally started to click.

I've heard Swiss German is even worse

by Jack @, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 13:35 (241 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Jack, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 13:41

as in, practically unintelligible. In contrast, I'm told the French spoken in Geneva is even acceptable to snooty Parisians - or rather Parisian French is even acceptable to snooty Genevans.

The son of one of my ND buddies spent his semester abroad in Vienna and said much the same thing as you. One of the things I remember him saying is that Austrians tend to take the guttural part out of the ichlaut and say it with a hard k "ick". True?

Forgot to include --

by professor @, South Bend, IN, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 03:52 (242 days ago) @ professor

Buchenwald/Weimar: This was where my high-schooler asked to go on his last day before returning to the US. It was a lot to handle. I've heard that sometimes when you visit the camps there are school groups there that show less than the appropriate reverence, but we didn't have any of that. Prepare to spend a couple of hours in the museum. And if you can, do the walk from Weimar to Buchenwald along with the accompanying audio introduction that you can download from the camp's app.

Same experience in Sachsenhausen last year

by Jack @, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 09:35 (241 days ago) @ professor
edited by Jack, Wednesday, June 12, 2024, 09:47

One important point made by our outstanding tour guide, named Xavier, who is a French journalist who has lived in Berlin for ten years:

Germany is really the only country that has taken responsibility for the Holocaust and innumerable other Nazi atrocities, as well they should, but it's a stark contrast with most other countries and their atrocities over the centuries (including Austria). As an example, Xavier's a proud Frenchman but France, like all of the colonial powers, has taken little responsibility in contrast for what they did in their colonies, or if they have, it's been recent and rather reluctant. And that's certainly not limited to European powers.

Also an important note: it took the (West) Germans a generation to do it. It was really swept under the rug until the late 70's, but they finally did do it and enforced it with laws, such as the requirements for all schoolchildren to visit a concentration camp.

One other point when visiting Germany - it's wise to remember that while Nazis and Communists are a major part of their history, try not not to get bogged down in it too much, because there's so much more there that has nothing to to with it.

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