Couple of thoughts on ND's offensive struggles
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Monday, October 25, 2021, 22:32 (1201 days ago)
Caught the Inside the Garage podcast this week, which is an insightful view if nothing else. They mentioned the offensive line woes and how they are all in tuned to it. They were happy and felt the OL deserved kudos to the development.
But I also found this passage from Sampson after talking with Book about the QB play:
“I can’t even scroll on Twitter as a fan,” Book said. “That’s just something that you’ve got to get off as the quarterback at Notre Dame. People are ridiculous. And people don’t know anything. I knew that. Trust me. I knew that. It’s just really obvious now.”
And it dovetails with some earlier thoughts I posted. I think Rees is doing an admirable job in a year when so many balls were up in the air. Obviously the OL was a question mark and ND's unusual move of hitting the transfer portal should have given a glimpse to the desperation of the urgency there. Ditto Coan's recruitment. These were misses on BK's part. But you know what? They patched things together. And if 6-1 is the result of piecing together an incomplete team in this age of college football then good on them. I'll take it.
2021 was always a bit of an unknown, if not a crapshoot. Certainly it wasn't as baked as 2020 but it's reassured me that we'll try to cover our missteps. And if recruiting picks up then I like what's in store for next year and beyond.
Confirmed now and forever:
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:18 (1200 days ago) @ Domer99
Ian Book is the Chicago-style pizza of ND players.
That’s really unfair to Book.
by JD in Portland , Portland OR, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 22:18 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
edited by JD in Portland, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 22:30
Chicago pizza is boisterous, overhyped and not great.
Detroit would be a better comparator - reliable, underrated, not a flashy showstopper but appreciated by people with discerning taste. And it grows on you and is valued more the more familiar you get with it.
Hah! You may be right.
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 05:43 (1200 days ago) @ JD in Portland
To clarify, I didn't mean it as a direct comparison, rather that he's a divisive subject of conversation who can be guaranteed to generate long threads of heated discussion in this forum. Much like Chicago pizza. Perhaps I should have called him the Mariano Rivera of ND players instead...
Ha. And wouldn’t it be sweet if Ian’s career were as long
by JD in Portland , Portland OR, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 06:26 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
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You owe me a keyboard.
by omahadomer, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:00 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
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I love this
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:33 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
Don't change, don't ever change.
who here hates chicago style pizza?
by JN, Seattle, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:22 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
edited by Jay, Friday, December 15, 2023, 13:59
sure i'm critical of a 2-foot diameter wheel of sausage covered in 6 inches of sauce and cheese but that doesn't mean i'm not enjoying every bite of it.
Tags:
food
Can’t hate any style pizza but
by JD in Portland , Portland OR, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 22:14 (1200 days ago) @ JN
edited by JD in Portland, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 22:31
Chicago is not my thing. Too gooey and there is no subtlety to the flavors. It’s just too damn much.
I’m biased being from Detroit but authentic Detroit beats the heck out of top Chicago.
And when done right, NYC pizza is the best unless we want to include Rome.
I actually agree about Chicago pizza
by JN, Seattle, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:18 (1199 days ago) @ JD in Portland
I've never really liked it. But there was a place that served a great thin crust pizza that my dad and I would share while everyone else with us would drown themselves in cheese and sauce after cubs games. It was renaltos or something like that.
I don't like NY style either. I prefer the crust thin and a little crispy.
D'Agostino's?
by IrishGuard, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:32 (1199 days ago) @ JN
It's near Wrigley and isn't Chicago-style. It's a tasty treat.
In fact, most pizza places in Chicago aren't Chicago-style.
You've definately got to be in the mood for Chicago style. Even so, it remains miles and miles better than the flaccid triangle of grease New Yorkers call pizza.
Fight me.
by Joe
, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:30 (1199 days ago) @ IrishGuard
New York style is what defines pizza to our country. You take it back.
Dags was really, really freaking good, though - tavern style or whatever it's called, I consider that pizza.
Dags is definitely its own thing.
by MattG, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:17 (1199 days ago) @ IrishGuard
It's awesome, and it's more or less unlike any pizza I've ever had anywhere else. It's .... sweeter?
I need to get back to Chicago. It's right there, and I am in the city so rarely.
Nah it was definitely R-something
by JN, Seattle, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:41 (1199 days ago) @ IrishGuard
Renaldos or Renaltos or something close to that. I think there were at least 3 of them around the city, but this one was the best. You stepped down to get into it and the back either walked out to or opened up to a patio that I think was shaded by trees or something. I'm 99% sure it's been gone for a while. Fuck I guess it's been 15-20 years so who the hell knows.
Maybe Ranalli's down on Clark.
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:43 (1199 days ago) @ JN
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YESSSS!! Thank you
by JN, Seattle, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:30 (1199 days ago) @ BillyGoat
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If we're talking about thin-crust, could also be Pat's.
by MattG, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:37 (1199 days ago) @ IrishGuard
My takes -
The big deep dish chains all kind of suck and are for tourists. Heavy dry cornbready crust kind of ruins everything.
Pequods is the best deep dish pizza in the world.
Art of Pizza is the best in the city regardless of format.
There are tons of one-location places throughout chicagoland. Domer99 and I are lucky to have Barones in Glen Ellyn. Michael Anthony's in Villa Park is exceptional.
None are deep dish, and I'm not sure that's the original format of chicago pizza anyway.
Is Pal Joey's still in West Chicago?
by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 11:57 (1199 days ago) @ MattG
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Yep. I have a neighbor that swears by that place.
by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 13:26 (1199 days ago) @ Bill
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All of this is spot on
by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:57 (1199 days ago) @ MattG
Barone's is wonderful. I argue for it every Friday night.
Agree on Pequod's.
by IrishGuard, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:44 (1199 days ago) @ MattG
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That's a great spot.
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:41 (1199 days ago) @ IrishGuard
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New Jersey pizza beats NYC and Italy
by HCE, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 04:12 (1200 days ago) @ JD in Portland
The tavern pie might not be unique to Jersey, but it was perfected there:
New Haven has its own style too.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:20 (1199 days ago) @ HCE
It's similar to NY style. I couldn't tell you the differences off hand but it is definitely very good.
There are a couple of places here in town
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 11:30 (1199 days ago) @ PAK
that feature New Haven style pizzas. Pretty good stuff, although not as cheesy as I like. Very crispy crust.
I look at that "tavern style" pizza and it appears awfully close to the local product, although cutting your pie into squares is a weird tradition adhered to by a lot of places in Ohio.
I am completely unfamiliar with this classification.
by Tim, Chicago, IL, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 06:46 (1199 days ago) @ HCE
I say this as a native New Jerseyan who greatly prefers NY style to Chicago style, despite living in Chicago for 23 years. The distinction between NJ and NY style here seems as arbitrary as the distinction between various pizza joints.
Well, it's not strictly a Jersey thing
by HCE, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:33 (1199 days ago) @ Tim
but North Jersey restaurants seem to do it best, at least in my experience. It's in the same basic thin-crust family as Neapolitan and the NYC slice, but the crust is distinct from either. It's also greasy as hell, which I consider a virtue in pizza, though your mileage may vary.
I'm not from New Jersey myself, but my mom is from Kearney and my dad was from West Orange, so I grew up visiting the Star Tavern in South Orange--it is, quite simply, the best pizza on the planet. Next time you're back in the Garden State, you should give it a try.
Stasny's in Waldwick & Kinchley's in Ramsey for us.
by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:42 (1199 days ago) @ HCE
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The article’s pictures are helpful.
by Joe I , Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:02 (1199 days ago) @ Tim
I didn’t realize it was a sub-genre either, but the pix help show a subtle difference from NY pizza. Thin crust, much less crust around the edges and sauce completely covering the pie seem to be the key characteristics. I grew up eating pizza at Kinchley’s Tavern. It was so good. Go figure!
Wow had no idea NJ pizza was a thing
by JD in Portland , Portland OR, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 06:31 (1200 days ago) @ HCE
That actually sounds really good.
Which made me realize that for as well traveled as I am, I’ve somehow only been to NJ once, and that was very brief one night to hop across the bridge to Hoboken to see The Replacements at Maxwell’s. What a great club and amazing night that was.
Wait, were you at this Replacements show?
by HCE, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:24 (1199 days ago) @ JD in Portland
If so, holy crap am I jealous. (If not, I'm still pretty damn jealous.)
No. Mine was 1985. They played at Maxwell’s a lot
by JD in Portland , Portland OR, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:08 (1199 days ago) @ HCE
Show I saw was great. The dBs opened. Everyone in R.E.M. was in attendance.
It was quite the scene.
Maxwell’s may have had the best food of any rock club ever in the US. The Italian restaurant there was terrific. Owner Steve Fallon was an amazing guy and a legend in his own right. Bands like the Mats, R.E.M., Feelies, dBs etc etc were insanely loyal to him and vice versa.
I don’t hate it.
by Joe
, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 19:43 (1200 days ago) @ JN
It’s just not pizza.
Realistically, there aren’t many ways one could combine bread, sauce, cheese, and sausage, and not have it turn out at least reasonably palatable.
Exactly, its a casserole
by KelleyCook , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 20:53 (1200 days ago) @ Joe
Sure its good tasting, but calling it a pizza is as big a stretch as calling Leland Stanford Jr's University an ethical institution.
It's an above ground marinara swimming pool for rats
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:28 (1199 days ago) @ KelleyCook
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--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope
One of the greatest segments Stewart has ever done.
by okerland , The right side of the Bay Bridge, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:43 (1199 days ago) @ Greg
OT - Can I just say 'Motor City Pizza: Detroit Deep Dish'
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:31 (1200 days ago) @ JN
is shockingly good if you cook it right (21m @400).
Wife grabbed a Supreme double pack at Costco. The crust was fantastic. It wasn't heavy like a lot of DD pies.
There's a Detroit chain here in town
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:50 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
(Jet's) that probably pales compared to others in that same style you could find up north, but goddamn if it isn't delicious when you're in the mood for a little thicker pie. The corners are obscenely good.
Speaking as a Detroiter, Jet's is great.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 05:06 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
Jet's is easily the best Detroit Style delivery oriented chain in Detroit. It's top shelf stuff.
There are better Detroit style pizzas available here in the area but they are more expensive sit-down restaurants that do delivery/carryout in addition to a robust sit-down business.
The other thing I'll say is that the difference between Jet's and the higher end dine in places is awfully small. They make a very good pizza, full stop.
It's our only Detroit-style in chicagoland, I think.
by MattG, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 08:38 (1199 days ago) @ PAK
Good to know it's not some chicago-based phony
That's good to know.
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 05:46 (1200 days ago) @ PAK
I'm accustomed to being derided for expressing an affinity for Giordano's, so assuming that I'm getting something less than the best as an export is old habit, I suppose.
Detroit style is meant to be 'working class' pizza.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 06:49 (1199 days ago) @ KGB
When I was growing up, in my neighborhood at least, none of the bigger chains had it and the sit down restaurants that specialized in it were much fewer and far between. If I wanted square pizza (basically nobody at this point really knew it was a Detroit thing) I had to ride my bike up to one of the convenience stores that had a pizza oven in the back.
That's how Jet's got their start, actually.
What is Barnaby's in SB considered? I use to love that
by Grantland, y'allywood, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:29 (1199 days ago) @ PAK
place. I think mainly for the pitchers but I liked the pizza alot too, but maybe that was because of the pitchers?
I know I have great nostalgia for it.
I've never been.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 11:17 (1199 days ago) @ Grantland
I spent all 4 years on campus and when we got pizza delivered it was like 90% Papa Johns, 10% Dominoes.
Though by the time Junior year rolled around we were ordering Wolfies a lot more often than pizza. They had our quad's order down pat.
Naugles for us ordering in.
by Grantland, y'allywood, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 12:05 (1199 days ago) @ PAK
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IMO, in South Bend, it's Bruno's, then Barnaby's (yes, I
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 09:54 (1199 days ago) @ Grantland
know it's a chain). Both of those way before Rocco's.
I like Bruno's 1st too but Barnaby's was a great change.
by Grantland, y'allywood, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 10:14 (1199 days ago) @ BillyGoat
edited by Grantland, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 10:29
though I love roccos for roccos.
First time at Roccos was with dad and he put down a credit card. Their reply, "we don't take credits cards but leave us a business card and we will bill you"
Dad got a bill like 6 months later.
Yes. Jet's 4 corner is my go-to after a night of carousing
by Mike (Embrey), Mountain Holler, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 00:00 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
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The mark of a true connoisseur
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 16:54 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
The corners are obscenely good
Exactly!
Seconded
by bpeters07 , Sack Lake City, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:48 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
There's no Chicago-style deep dish anywhere around Salt Lake. A Detroit-style place just opened here about a year ago, but the Costco double-pack is almost as good and a fraction of the price. It's not Chicago-style, but it's great.
it's sort of a pop/soda thing
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:07 (1200 days ago) @ KGB
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I'd qualify his comments, re: Twitter, et al
by IrishGuard, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 06:29 (1201 days ago) @ Domer99
Obviously, there are lots of idiots out there, as well as many people who speak authoritatively without having real knowledge, particularly of the program and it inner workings. But you can't just take insiders' words for it, either.
Teams can become silos of information, and/or cults of their own personality, and be blind to problems that are obvious to everyone else. Every time an underperforming coach gets the axe, there are at least some players bewailing it, or who insist they were right on the cusp of righting the ship. Hell, the '99 ND team was adamant it was going to win the title, and many of the guys maintained that the program was in great shape even after that trash 5-7 season.
Coaches work really hard to create heavily propagandized program environments of positivity and belief. It's no surprise when players buy into it.
I think Ian has a pretty good point!!
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 06:48 (1200 days ago) @ IrishGuard
Unless I imagined all the people on this very board talking about how much he sucked last season when his career record was only like 24-3.
Since I'm the Ian "hater" around here...
by domer.mq
, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:27 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
I guess I'll respond.
I never thought he sucked. Indeed he was the epitome of "what though the odds." But his ceiling is undeniably limited relative to elite CFB QBs. I don't understand why people get personally offended if one makes such an observation.
He's too short. He has limited arm strength. He had limited field vision. He had a terrible habit of turning his back to the field too early. And frankly he didn't appear to have top-tier level decision making.
Yes, he absolutely won a ton of games. I don't seek to take that away from him. But he's another in a now long line of non-Tier-1 QBs in the BK era.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
I would follow that up with,
by nedhead , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 15:03 (1200 days ago) @ domer.mq
he also maximized his potential beyond what anyone probably thought possible. He was the best QB that he could be -- still limited in the ways you describe, but I think that this could be interpreted as a compliment rather than a criticism of Book.
The playoff QBs last year were Fields, Mac Jones, Trevor Lawrence, and Book. One of those guys is not like the others in terms of talent, but they were all pretty great college QBs.
It is kind of maddening
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:14 (1200 days ago) @ domer.mq
I think your synopsis of Book is fair. He is a great example of someone persevering despite their capped ceiling. But he was never supposed to be the guy in the first place (which has nothing to do with your evaluation).
But the maddening part is our inability to land a top QB. I recall some discussion (maybe from omahaD?) on this the other day. Who have been the highest coveted ND QBs? (247 composite listed below, or maybe just 247 rankings can't tell from descriptor)
- Tyler Buchner 4*
- Drew Pyne 4* pro
- Phil Jurkovec 4* dual
- Avery Davis 4* dual
- Brandon Wimbush 4* dual
- Malik Zaire 4* dual
- Gunner Kiel 5* pro
That's a somewhat underwhelming haul, at least for ND's standards. I wonder what our criteria is for evaluating these guys. This is not to say that rankings are the end all, but you'd think ND would have had a better track record than this.
Buchner, Jurkovec, and Wimbush were all top 100 guys
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:37 (1200 days ago) @ Domer99
Buchner was #71 overall (and was a 5* for a while before a bad showing at the Elite 11 killed his ranking), Jurkovec was #83 overall, and Wimbush was #46 overall. I know you know this, but not all 4*s are the same; from a recruiting quality standpoint I think we need to differentiate between a guy like Wimbush, who was recruited heavily by Alabama, Stanford, and Penn State, from a guy like Davis, who had position questions from the beginning.
The sequence with rankings:
2011 - Golson, #267 (staff thought much more highly of him)
2012 - Kiel, #26 (flipped from LSU)
2013 - Zaire, #162 (Meyer really liked Zaire too)
2014 - Kizer, #242
2015 - Wimbush, #46 (flipped from Penn State after Blake Barnett, #22, decommitted)
2016 - Book, #517 (flipped from Wazzu after striking out on Shea Patterson, #4, and Malik Henry, #49) (bullets dodged)
2017 - Davis, #246
2018 - Jurkovec, #83
2019 - Clark, #521 (flipped from Wake Forest after Cade McNamara flipped to Michigan, supposedly over growing PJ hype; McNamara's commitment directly blocked Dylan Morris, #171, from committing and indirectly blocked Graham Mertz, #65, who ND would've pursued much earlier and likely landed) (QB recruiting is fraught with pitfalls)
2020 - Pyne, #225
2021 - Buchner, #71
2022 - Angeli, #239; chasing LSU commit Walker Howard, #31, and evaluating USC commit Devin Brown, #59
2023 - Chasing Dante Moore, #16, then Avery Johnson, #161 (likely to rise considerably)
The staff was more or less going starter/filler/starter/filler from 2011 to 2020 (remember, when they signed Pyne PJ was still here and part of the future). From the 2021 cycle forward it looks more like they're trying to go starter/starter/starter, which I heartily endorse. Get the best guy you can every year, and yes some of them will leave, but it avoids the situation they're in this year.
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"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
Also, I think the loosening of transfer rules
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:42 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
edited by KGB, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:45
have made it such that you may as well try to get the best QB recruit you can in every class. I also believe that the have-nots look at the fingers-on-one-hand haves and recognize what NFL teams have known for years, which is that if you don't have a franchise-level QB then your odds of actually winning a championship are quite long. Of course, the framework of the NFL forces needy teams to barter away their future just to buy a QB lottery ticket, whereas college programs are welcome to grab as many as they're able to get to campus. So if Kelly and Rees can convince Howard or Brown to jump aboard alongside Angeli, it only increases our chances of eventually cashing in a winner.
That being said, having a kid around like Drew Pyne who is functional and less likely to split if he's not QB1 in accordance with the timing in his dream journal, is still worth plenty, IMO.
The miss rate on QBs is so high. Blake Barnett
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:10 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
edited by hobbs, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:13
had offers from everyone and was the nation's 22nd ranked recruit. He ended up playing at three schools (Ala, Arizona State, UCF).
OTOH after 1 yr at a JUCO, where he ranked 9th nationally in offensive production, the head coach send film of the 6'5 220lb QB with a rocket arm, to every D1 program in America. Two schools responded with offers.
Eastern Michigan (who eventually pulled their offer after the kid visited).
Wyoming.
... and that's how Josh Allen ended up at Wyoming.
But Blake kept getting offers long after he had shown that he wasn't particularly good.
Look at Malik Henry
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Friday, October 29, 2021, 09:51 (1197 days ago) @ hobbs
I don't know why FSU ever got involved with him, honestly. He played at four different high schools, which is a major major red flag. Last weeks, I think, at FSU before being suspended for conduct detrimental, at which point he peaced out. He landed at Independence Community College in Kansas, better known as Last Chance U, and eventually got thrown off the team there in his second season. I mean, how much of a problem do you have to be to get kicked out of Last Chance U???
He walked on at Nevada and played a little bit before essentially being told to go away and work on himself, at which point of course he dropped out. He's now with the Frisco Fighters of the Indoor Football League, probably still earnestly believing that he's an NFL talent.
--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
Come to think of it
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:54 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
edited by Domer99, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 15:04
Even when we hit on the very top QBs, it was with lukewarm results. I recall landing Jimmy Clausen, thinking this is the dawn of a new era at ND. He was going to be the pied piper. And that class was pretty good (although not as good as anticipated after Jimmy committed). Recall that we could have landed Mitch Mustain except we were confident on landing Jimmy. Then we got Dayne Crist the year after Jimmy. Had we accepted Mustain's commitment (which he wanted to do) we would have had 3 straight 5*s in 3 consecutive classes.
Of course, Jimmy lived up to the hype but the team didn't and his tenure will go down as a bit of a forgotten time. Dayne was riddled with injuries and never panned out.
And the QB that overshadowed those guys during Weis' career was a guy who wasn't Weis'....hell, he wasn't even recruited by ND. He was pushed onto ND by Chinedum Ndukwe's dad who told effing Ty Willingham you need to take this kid. If you don't, Michigan will.
Ah that's 'crootin' for ya.
I hear ya
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:45 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
I totally do. Just seems crazy to me that we haven't been able to land a top notch 5* guy in 12 years. I don't think any of us thought Kiel was that guy, and were probably comfortable with him choosing LSU. I was actually a little leery when he flipped back from LSU.
I don't really fault BK for taking the guys he has, each was coveted in their own special way, or filled a certain role. Just surprises me that there hasn't been one guy that was a consensus top flight QB.
Your point on 4* is a good one.
Also re 2019, I'm pretty sure we simultaneously went after
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:44 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
both Mertz and Max Duggan (229) who ended up at TCU and is pretty good.
Yes.
by oviedoirish , Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:42 (1200 days ago) @ domer.mq
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Two times.
by OGerry , Maine wilderness, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:09 (1200 days ago) @ oviedoirish
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thanks for summarizing
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:33 (1200 days ago) @ domer.mq
I think it's a fair, impersonal view of Book and plenty reasonable to be voiced.
Now maybe this qualifies for Hullie's "underappreciated" label, which would be fair, but your summary certainly doesn't qualify under CW's twitter-level "hate", which sadly Ian had to contend with.
You also have to consider
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:47 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Book won as many games as he did with Jeff Quinn coaching OL and Del Alexander coaching WR. Does he not get bonus points for overcoming that? What was making the offense good during that time, good vibes and the luck of the Irish?
i'm not sure we've had the full Del discussion here
by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:54 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
If so and I missed it, my apologies. I know the discussion has happened at length elsewhere online.
What's the big beef with him? He's had recruiting shortcomings, certainly, but that seems to be on a big upswing. He's put multiple guys into the league. The guys that stick around seem to get better as their careers progress.
And I've always admired the fact that his WRs go a great job blocking.
I suppose if there's an easy upgrade out there, sure go get him. But I'm not opposed to him sticking around.
The Del conversation was probably most heated...
by BPH, San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:06 (1200 days ago) @ Jeremy (WeIsND)
in the offseason, after the Johnson transfer and before the commitments of two elite receivers. The general thrust was that he didn't recruit well enough and he didn't develop and play top young receivers early enough, which in turn led a guy like Johnson to transfer.
Since then, of course, Johnson has rotted on the bench at UCF, Williams and Merriweather committed, and Styles and Colzie are key members of the rotation (though that's almost by default because of attrition). So I'd say the criticism has been muted quite a bit.
Because of the change, it will be interesting to see how Alexander is handled after this season, just as it will be interesting to see what happens with Quinn if the line continues to improve with the new personnel and a top recruit like Schrauth and/or Wagner joins the fold.
Also my sense is WR recruiting is heavily dependent
by JN, Seattle, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:16 (1200 days ago) @ BPH
Upon offense and esp QB recruiting. Elite WR want someone who can get them the ball. Our QB recruiting has been wildly up and down but never elite in BK's time (even given Gunner, PJ, and now Buchner). I'm not saying that absolves Del, but it's a factor in evaluating our WR recruiting.
Chicken-egg, of course. Just ask Jake Heaps and Kasean
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:29 (1200 days ago) @ JN
Williams.
A very good point - we were dead in the water with ASB
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:10 (1200 days ago) @ JN
because of Wimbush's struggles. Even if he loved everything else about ND more than anywhere else, there was no way he was coming. Elite WRs are extremely stat-conscious guys.
--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
yeah, I'm not aware of it either
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:05 (1200 days ago) @ Jeremy (WeIsND)
CW thinks that "everyone wants him gone." Porquoi?
He's been a favorite target on 247 and ISD boards
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:09 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
for about three years now. The common complaints are he takes too long to get talented guys on the field, he only develops big receivers, and his recruiting sucks.
I'm fairly ambivalent on Del myself. I think he's OK, maybe a little above average as a position coach and probably about average to slightly above as a recruiter. He's actually recruited fairly well outside of a black hole in 2019 and has been hit with some bad luck, but the black hole was a huge problem.
In 2018 we signed Austin, Lenzy, Keys, and Micah Jones. We never should've signed him, wasn't close to being a player on this level, but the rest of the class was good - an elite prospect, a 4* speed guy, and a potential diamond in the rough. Del couldn't have known that Kevin would toke up and then break his foot, or that Lenzy would struggle with concussions and hammy issues. It was a good group.
In 2019 we signed Cam Hart and Kendall Abdur-Rahman, both three stars. There were higher profile guys we probably could've had a better shot at, and one higher profile guy in particular that we chased really hard despite zero chance at him because his mother refused to let him even consider ND (Jalen McMillan). That was a bad miscalculation on Del's part. Cam of course is a CB now and KAR has 1 catch for -5 yards at Western Kentucky.
In 2020 we signed 5* Jordan Johnson and 3*s Xavier Watts and Jay Brunelle (both interesting developmental guys but neither an immediate contributor). JJ was an immature mess and is gone, Watts is somewhere on defense now, and Brunelle transferred to Yale. So nobody from the 2019-20 classes is still on the roster as a WR.
In the 2021 class, Styles and Colzie are both obviously early contributors and we've heard good things about Jayden Thomas. The 2022 class has at least two more early contributors, most likely, in CJ Williams and Tobias Merriweather. So it seems things are picking up, but the 2019-20 classes soured a lot people on Del irrevocably. And I get that, they were pretty bad.
Generally I'm cautious about assuming that replacement level would be an improvement. In Del's case I'm more confident that we could expect at least comparable performance out of a new hire, so I would be fine with making a move. I do think he's better than the vocal crowd is willing to allow though, and it's not the end of the world if he doesn't move on either.
--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
Good summary.
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:59 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
edited by KGB, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:53
I think Del has had his share of missteps mixed in with some bad beats (injuries, DCE out of his unit) that had little or nothing to do with him. He does seem to have made some meaningful headway on the recruiting front (the '22 kids, plus doing quality work with top '23 prospects like Tate, Brown, etc), but for me it just comes back to the lack of development at the position. Dude is like the Mike Brey of assistant coaches, where he seems to need his guys to have at least 3 years under their belt before they break out in a major way (Boykin, Claypool, McKinley). And Austin's spotty performance and Lenzy's ongoing cipher-ness this fall do not speak well of his most recent efforts. Our competitors for top receivers on the recruiting front will continue to hammer ND about how they'll be put on ice until 2025 if they come here, and most of them will probably see that the data supports the claim and scratch us.
Del has been in the role long enough to safely declare that he's not an obvious value-add as a position coach. As mentioned elsewhere regarding the Freeman gambit, receiver seems like a spot where Kelly can afford to roll the dice at this stage of his tenure on making the sort of coaching upgrade that could single-handedly elevate the offense and the program as a whole.
Curious
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:32 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
How much of Del's employment was due to Chip Long? I can't recall the other names bandied about around that time.
Largely connected, I'm sure
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:43 (1200 days ago) @ Domer99
BK was operating with virtually no leverage of course, so if Chip said Del was a sine qua non I don't think Kelly would've been in a position to block it. If he would even have wanted to, I haven't ever heard that he wasn't on board with the hire.
I also think BK's assistant loyalty is severely overplayed, fwiw. If he's not happy with Del at the end of the year I think there will be a mutual parting.
--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
I think he struggles with traits and maturity stuff in his
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:28 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
room. There might be some inherent challenges in the stereotypical WR personality type transitioning to ND. But I think the complaint that Del takes too long to get guys ready is more about off the field than on the field. But as a result, we got just a little more than a year out of Boykin, who then went to the Combine and revealed himself to be a mutant. 2 good years out of Claypool. Austin and JJ's issues are pretty well established. Michael Young was a starter (at least near-starter) who got reamed by Young after his fumble against SC and transferred. Lenzy has struggled to get his head in the game.
I think most of his recruiting is solid to good. But there might be a problem with his evaluations for "fit" at ND. Either that or he just hasn't found the right recipe to help his guys get settled.
As a position coach, I think he's solid. In particular, the blocking attitude in his group is generally good. The only guy I've had a significant technique complaint about is Austin running go routes too close to the sideline and not giving the QB enough room on his outside shoulder.
Claypool was our second leading receiver in 2017
by Brendan
, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:56 (1200 days ago) @ BillyGoat
ESB led the team with 33 catches for 515 yards. Claypool was next in both categories with 29 catches for 402 yards. Both of them were, of course, severely limited by how bad Wimbush was. That was Claypool's sophomore year; he played in all 12 games as a freshman but mostly on special teams. Styles, the clear example that freshmen are starting to get on the field, is on pace to post 9 catches for 136 yards.
It's a bit of a pet peeve when people say that Claypool took too long to get on the field - it's one of those things that got legs at some point and just became part of the magisterium. Claypool played a lot as a sophomore but ESB and Stepherson (when available) took precedence because they were just better at that point.
Otherwise I think the guys who haven't gotten on the field have shown, here or elsewhere, why they haven't gotten on the field. Jordan Johnson has yet to record a reception for UCF and has barely even seen any snaps, while two true freshmen have moved ahead of him. KAR has, as noted, made one small negative dent at Western Kentucky. Micah Jones hasn't cracked the depth chart at FCS Illinois State. Jay Brunelle has appeared in one game for Yale, and also it's Yale.
The bigger question I think is around evaluation, prioritization, and at times effort on the recruiting trail. There are guys like OSU's Gee Scott who ND could've had a real shot at but they were late to the party. Other guys like McMillan were just wasted effort. That's where Del has the biggest area for improvement, IMO.
--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats
Good point on Claypool and Wimbush. But I think we agree
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:59 (1200 days ago) @ Brendan
edited by BillyGoat, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:05
on the evaluation and targeting piece. Maybe some of those kids just weren't good enough for ND and/or didn't have a mindset that would allow them to succeed at ND.
And my heart breaks every time I see the words "Kevin Stepherson." Man, that kid could have been sooooooo good. EDIT: Stepherson has nothing to do with the rest of my post -- I know Denbrock recruited him.
Kid had soooo much potential
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 15:00 (1200 days ago) @ BillyGoat
I am genuinely surprised I haven't seen him signed to a practice squad.
Despite CW's assertions to the contrary
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:36 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
I think there's a stronger case against Del than Jeff, but after this past offseason I'd lean toward retaining him.
are "wins" a good measure of a QB?
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:52 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
When your defense gives up less than 20 points per game over your tenure, is that a credit to you the quarterback?
Is Ian Book merely the Jamie Moyer of ND quarterbacks?
In both 2019 and 2020
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:58 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
ND had a Top 21 offense in F+ despite a quarterback who was apparently severely limited, an OL coach who isn't any good and a WR coach everyone wants gone. How did this happen?
I'll answer if you will
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:02 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
Weren't we talking about win totals? I'd say the defense gets the lion's share of the wins credit during Book's tenure. I recognize your insertion of Jeff Quinn into this discussion to be the troll bait that it is.
Can we go by pass efficiency rating, then?
by Slainte Joe , Raleigh, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:23 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Slainte Joe, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:28
By that metric, Ian Book was better than Brady Quinn and Jimmy Clausen.
I suspect he ran for a lot more yards than either of them, too.
Also, his TD/INT rate was better.
Ian Book is the best quarterback Notre Dame has had in the last 25 years.
yeah it's Quinn and Book and then everyone else.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 07:02 (1199 days ago) @ Slainte Joe
Quinn vs. Book is a whole thing, I have no idea how you would compare and contrast them
Thank you. You said it, I'll refrain:)
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:24 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
- No text -
I think it's all of a piece
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:19 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
My argument: Ian Book was a really good college quarterback who was underappreciated at the time and still is apparently. I base this on the fact he won nearly every game he started, was a fourth round NFL Draft pick and led Top 20 offenses in his full two years as a starter. I know your whole thing last year was that the defense was driving the train even though there wasn't a single stat to support that assertion but I think the idea that "Book was just in the right place at the right time" is wrong, as the defenses were absolutely good (13th and 19th in F+ in 2019/20) but by no means "Can carry a team to a 21-4 record on their own" good.
Which circles back to my question is if Ian Book is as flawed as folks believe, and Jeff Quinn isn't very good, and Del Alexander (who I think is good but there are certainly folks who think otherwise) is a candidate to be replaced, then how did ND have a Top 20 offense in both 2019 and 2020? Were Chip and Tommy just that good at playcalling? Tony and Kyren?
Anyway I wouldn't call this fun but certainly a discussion. Go Irish, Beat Heels.
I guess I see Book as more fungible, that's true
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 10:13 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
It's easy to imagine (for me) alternate QBs performing to the level of Book in 2019-20 and achieving the same win totals simply because the defenses were so good and the bar for victory relatively low. We could have had a 50th ranked offense scoring barely 30 points per game and still racked up all the wins that we did. I'm scanning back and I can't find a game where the offense bailed out a failing defense under Book. I can find a number of examples of the opposite, though. And then you've got the really big games, where the defense still showed up (I would argue) and the offense disappeared. Clemson in November was the sole outlier, and that game has its asterisks as we all know.
There is a lot wrong here imo
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 14:47 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
The defense didn't play anywhere near championship caliber against Michigan, Clemson Round Two or Alabama, plus if you wanted to be really biased you could say they benefited from Kirby's conservative style in Athens (I think they did great so I wouldn't). We also know how one unit struggling can put all kinds of stress on another so the fact Lea got to scheme from positions of strength on the scoreboard is a real advantage. Also a few games that come to mind are 2019 USC second half and the first halves of BC and UNC last year when the defense wasn't playing well but offense made sure things were tight until they had time to lock down. And as Bart said, having a consistently productive offense with limited turnovers is such a boon for a defense and makes life so easy for everyone. Does anyone here think Book doesn't win the Cincy game? You don't win 16 straight with 13 of those by two scores because you have the 17th best defense and a fungible offense. Not how this sport works.
on the flipside, how often did Book put the D in a bad spot?
by Mike (bart), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 10:54 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Like, almost never, right? I guess your threshold for "fungible" maaters a lot here. I mean, he certainly has shown himself to be better than Jack Coan, who QB'd Wisconsin to a Rose Bowl. Had he been the QB of 2011 LSU instead of Jordan Jefferson (7-17 for 53 yds and 1 INT) in the 2011 MNC game could he have led them to victory? Could he have piloted 2012 Alabama to an NC?
There are a LOT of QBs with great defenses who don't go 26-4 or whatever Book went
I have heard some criticism of BK (maybe on here
by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:41 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
though I cannot remember) is that, while he has taken the program to levels not seen since Holtz, he seems to be stuck at a level where he plays and manages the games to beat those he should beat but not take the risks needs to lead us to win a National Championship.
The problem with taking the risks would be that some of the 10 -11 win seasons may have turned into 8-9 win seasons because the general style of play may mean he loses some he shouldn't have.
Also (and tied into this discussion) is the style of QB he has been able to attract to ND is the Ian Book style who wins the games he should but is just not good enough to take us all the way.
Not sure if I agree or if I am even articulating it correctly, but wondered what you all thought?
I think BK himself has made this analysis.
by domer.mq
, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:17 (1200 days ago) @ Grantland
I also think BK has determined he 1) has built enough good will with what he's done thus far and 2) is late enough in his career/tenure that he can take some chances, and the result of that is deciding to adopt a defense intended to create more "chaos."
The thing tripping him up right now is the big tall QB he brought on hasn't quite worked out (no thanks to the OL and the WRs). So this year ND isn't elite AND is often on the brink of losing to inferior teams.
--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
I was tough on Ian but I never thought he "sucked".
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:25 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
I doubt I'd ever say such a thing given his level of achievement.
My problem with Ian was always his decision making. I simply didn't understand what he was seeing on the field that made him (often) hesitate on even pre-defined throws.
Pitt (I think) last year. ND has Lenzy wide left. Pitt is in single high coverage with the CB (on Lenzy) playing outside leverage. Pre snap movement tells Ian he's got man coverage.
At the snap Ian locates the high safety, who at the snap, bites hard and starts coming down into the box.
This is exactly what ND wants. Lenzy has inside leverage, and the S, by coming down, has essentially taken himself out of the play. It's an easy post route for 6pts.
Ian saw everything and for reasons I couldn't figure out, he holds the ball and allows the defender to recover from his mistake and run under the throw.
The end result is by holding the ball the void closed, and what should have been an easy skinny post for TD. Ended up being a ball that landed out of the back of the EZ because of the delay in throwing the ball.
That's what I could not figure out about Book. I just didn't understand what he saw that often made him hold the ball.
That's a far cry from "he sucks".
An example from a game where the offense put up 38?
by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:50 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
Seems like Book is always unfortunately going to be a divisive lightning rod, but I think it's beyond a doubt that for all the legitimate criticisms you could have of him, spotlighted even more in an era where a team's fate hung so heavy on a QB's shoulders, something went seriously awry in the way fans treated Book. Whether that's simply because social media allows people be louder morons than usual is kind of beside the point, because that simultaneously demands people remember as usual that we are largely talking about teenagers.
Book also had the great misfortune
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:21 (1200 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
edited by KGB, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:24
of looking like Joe Freaking Montana over his first 5 starts before opponents really started to hone in on his weaknesses and adjust their gameplans to match. All I ever hear from detractors -- of Book and moreso of Kelly as a developer of QBs -- is how much Book "regressed" during his time at ND. This fails to acknowledge how insane and, frankly, unsustainable it is for a quarterback to complete more than 75% of his passes against major college competition over the long haul. They should probably build a fucking statue of Book for doing that in the first place. And anyone who actually *watched* him over the course of his three years starting could see that Book did indeed improve over time, even if his attributes were never quite championship-caliber.
http://www.cfbstats.com/2018/player/513/1080260/passing/gamelog.html
38 points against Pittsburgh
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:07 (1200 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
edited by hobbs, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:14
Will lead to you getting killed against Alabama for those very same mistakes.
Assuming NCs are the goal.
I don't think I'm weird or anything but when I watch ND I compare them to what I see from the elite programs of the day.
If the goal is to win a NC I'm constantly projecting NDs path.
So for me after a game it's not so much the final score, but how I project what I saw from ND to what I see in Bama/UGA.
Going back to the main point. I gave ND little shot of beating Alabama because I saw NDs mistakes and knew Bama would make them pay for those mistakes.
I understand that, and it's your prerogative
by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:46 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
But I'm 39 years old and my seven year old daughter is already older than I was the last time ND won a national championship. If I, and I believe many other ND fans around my age or younger, primarily watched ND games with that prism we would have gone more insane than we already are. I think that divide--not clean by age group, but an undeniable factor--goes a long way in explaining the divergent attitudes toward Book, BK and others.
ND football is kind of like Star Wars movies
by HCE, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:19 (1200 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
Should you dare enjoy a recent entry, even despite its obvious flaws, you'll risk the wrath of internet strangers who need you to know how much better things were in the 1980s.
(Not here, of course...well, maybe with Star Wars movies.)
And Van Halen!!! haha
by Busco21, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 17:49 (1200 days ago) @ HCE
- No text -
1980s music is far better.
by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:20 (1200 days ago) @ HCE
- No text -
Well duh. Even my kids can't argue with this obvious truth.
by KelleyCook , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:12 (1200 days ago) @ Grantland
The real question is 60s, 70s, 80s, or early 90s.
Unfortunately, music started to go south with the introduction of the iPod. That trendline continues 20 years later.
exactly just like 80's nd football and early star wars.
by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:50 (1200 days ago) @ KelleyCook
as for the rest of your post, I think I have to go with 70's
I saw an EDSBS tweet the other day
by HumanRobot , Cybertron, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:18 (1200 days ago) @ hobbs
and realized that's sort of us, too.
In my mind, it always comes back to "if you want to get Ohio State results, run your program like Ohio State" and my feeling is that's not where we're at.
I think this is the crux of it
by Regular Joseph , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:33 (1200 days ago) @ HumanRobot
In my rare comments on the matter I've been more critical than not of Book, but that's not to say I think he isn't in the running for best QB since 2000.
It's just that he has clear flaws compared to championship winning quarterbacks like Deshuan Watson, Trevor Lawrence, or Joe Burrow. Those Clemson and LSU teams are equal or worse than ND of recent vintage without those quarterbacks.
I think vintage 2010s Brian Kelly ND team is wins 3.5/10 from OSU of that era, 1/10 from Bama. Think that goes up to 5/10 and 2/10 with Ian Book. If you add one of the above QBs I think that goes way up to 8/10, 5/10.
ND has a very good football program right now, but we have not had a great QB and, like the tweet about Dabo says, that makes all the difference. I don't think we deserve one of those QBs but if pointing out that difference is hating on Ian Book, then sure.
is fan criticism ever warranted?
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:01 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
Were you ever critical of Book’s performance? Or critical of any ND player over your many years of internet publication? If not, why not? If so, why was it warranted in your opinion?
What is the point of sports fandom?
Why are we here, and what is the meaning of life?
Good questions for a Tuesday.
Of course it is but there are levels.
by PAK, Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 06:57 (1199 days ago) @ Jay
"Ugh we needed that throw from Book" is fundamentally different from "God, Book sucks! Get him out of there!" especially when by almost any objective measure he did not suck. He had bad throws, bad quarters, even the occasional bad game, but he did not suck and 90% of college football would have loved to have him start for their program.
On a small message board like this, it's not such a HUGE deal. But on twitter especially people need to take a beat before they start going in on kids by name. Friends, family, and the players themselves can and do name-search during and after games to see what people are saying. I've had tweets catch random "likes" from people who don't follow me who have last names suspiciously like players I mentioned in the tweet and I doubt I'm the only one. And if they see the positive they see the negative too.
These are for the most part 18-22 year old kids
Welp
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:49 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Is fan criticism ever warranted?
Of course! As mentioned below, the sporting-industrial complex makes billions off of fans. So fans have the right to criticize it and the individuals in it.
I'd like to add, though, that criticism should be as nuanced as the activity being criticized and it often isn't. Nor is it all that thoughtful. On Twitter, given the limitations of the medium, it almost never is either.
To take it out of the realm of the real, the three guys in the pub on Ted Lasso think they know what tactics and alignment the Richmond team should be utilizing, but without being in practice or knowing what the team's ultimate evolutionary goals are, they don't.
And so it is, often, with us.
Were you ever critical of Book’s performance? Or critical of any ND player over your many years of internet publication? If not, why not? If so, why was it warranted in your opinion?
Of course! And far more often than I am proud of. In fact, looking back, I'm not all that proud of any criticisms of players. I mean, maybe when a player was pulled over by the cops with a gun in his car on his way to a drug deal the criticism was warranted. Or when he tried to run from the cops and everybody knew that even a rotund SBPD guy could catch him.
But as for on-field stuff, unless it just looks like a kid isn't trying then I'm not going to criticize him any more.
What is the point of sports fandom?
As Otter said to Boone, the whole point is just to enjoy yourself.
Why are we here, and what is the meaning of life?
Because if we weren't here, we'd be there. 42.
--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope
It's perfectly ok for players and coaches to criticize fans.
by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:45 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Take the GA game at ND for instance. For Christ sakes there was a lot of red in that stadium.
Since you're playing Socrates, let's consult the Apology
by HCE, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:30 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
"I am better off than he is – for he knows nothing, and thinks he knows. I neither know nor think I know."
I think fan criticism is fine, provided it's served with a boatload of salt, since most of us know nothing about anything; I also think that Twitter amplifies ignorance and nastiness, so that people who actually do know things do well to ignore the rest of us.
twitter was a gamechanger for sports fandom
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:42 (1200 days ago) @ HCE
Oh, you mean I don't just have to yell at my television or rant to friends, I can actually send an angry, profane and potentially threatening message directly to my coach/player, and it's public and every other fan can read it too and pile on?
I think there's a big difference
by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:19 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Between all of us getting together to shoot the shit about the trials, tribulations, wins and losses of the team, and the coaches and/or players tuning in to see if they can get some great tips from any of us.
No, fan criticism is never warranted.
by nedhead , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:17 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
We are here to yell at the clouds and read rants about Dusty Baker. I don't think fan criticism is ever warranted, because it's always with such limited knowledge. We see that Chris Carter was cut because he only catches touchdowns and think that's crazy, without understanding the background.
Maybe, maybe fan criticism is warranted on big things, like complaining about how USC really screwed up by hiring Pete Carroll, or that maybe whoever happens to be the Lions coach sucks.
The best things players and coaches can do is to tune it all out.
I think most fans/media aren't knowledgeable enough...
by HumanRobot , Cybertron, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:33 (1200 days ago) @ nedhead
...to register useful criticisms/suggestions.
An example happened yesterday when WSCR radio host Matt Spiegel got into a conversation with guest Boomer Esiason. While I agree the Bears offense is a disaster and a story without heroes at the moment, Spiegel has been beating the drum that it's primarily a schematic failure by Nagy. So he runs up the flagpole that Nagy is letting down Justin Fields by not keeping 2 TEs in every passing play and running max protect. Esiason just laughed at him and said 'you're going to help out a struggling young QB by running 2 receivers against 4 in coverage? Fields just isn't ready.' And Spiegel really didn't get it.
I point that all out to say that big picture problems in football are obvious, but developing and executing solutions is hard, really hard. It isn't a good idea to think "hey, I read a blog about the spread option running game, let's try that out against Georgia Tech."
The Gold Seats crowd thinks ND idea is too spread and pass happy and idolizes the Harbaugh offense. Michigan fans think Harbaugh runs a Jurrasic offense and has a puntosaur game management philosophy.
Ditka was right -- "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink"
Dusty may now be a Hall of Famer
by MattG, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:26 (1200 days ago) @ nedhead
I think this title would cinch it. He has pennants in both leagues.
Turns out “AL Baseball” and “being old” are the things Dusty needed to be super effective.
If the stros were still in the NL we’d see Bregman getting double switched out and weird bullpen errors. But they are not, so we won’t. Astros in 5
UNLESS… the games in Atlanta get silly with strategy.
I think it's a good question
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:22 (1200 days ago) @ nedhead
I can't put a blanket over it, because we fans follow our sports to discuss and dissect and occasionally rant. What's the purpose of professional sports leagues, other than to generate fan interest and make money? Creating conversation and interest and attention is exactly the purpose.
But there are gradients of fandom. I'm sure we could come up with a spectrum of behavioral reaction to a sports team failure, from rational conversation of said failure all the way to personal threats directed at players on twitter.
It's possible we are merely wrapped up in our own chamber
by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:20 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
edited by Domer99, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:23
If I had to guess, all other college football teams have their own hyperbolic segment of their fanbase.
To answer your question, of course it's fair for fans to criticize their/coach/etc.. That's the nature of sports. I pushed back on some of that criticism RE: the OL, because much of the fodder I read was calling for Quinn's head on a platter based on 4 to 5 games into the season, with little to no regard about how we got to this situation or his past performance.
But same goes for BK. If we fired him every time there was an adamant minority calling for his head we'd be on our 3rd or 4th? coach since 2010.
I'm all for healthy critique and introspection. And hell, we all want the team to win. But there are times when I wonder if someone is really a fan when there is nary any support and almost all negativity. It hurts my head how hypocritical and contradictory the criticisms are in some corners (we all know where we can find this).
I only have small preferences on this notion; one that it be reasonable, and two that it not be personal. Those axioms get violated most of the time the Pandora's box is opened.
Are coaches always right? Is every player excellent?
by Mike (bart), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:28 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
- No text -
no, but fans are generally even less right
by HumanRobot , Cybertron, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:48 (1200 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
Generally fans seem to subscribe to "team X isn't doing good enough, so they should just do the opposite!" which ends up being one of those logical fallacies that I can't remember the names of.
'Does a Right to Criticism Exist?'
by Mike (bart), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:04 (1200 days ago) @ HumanRobot
and 'Is That Often Right Judiciously Exercised?' are two different things.
They are asking fans to watch and support the endeavor, literally asking them to behold the event.
Now "are most sports fans loud mouth assholes who don't know what they're talking about?" - that's closer to the issue at hand I think
Agreed. I think it's as simple as "just don't be an asshole"
by HCE, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:40 (1200 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
The more nuanced version starts by acknowledging that, in practical terms, our criticism is largely meaningless, since fans have little-to-no influence over players, coaches, or organizations. If we stipulate that criticism is largely academic or diversionary, then there's little point to the nastiness and self-importance one finds in the more toxic corners of fandom.
Or, you know, criticize away, but don't be an asshole about it.
it reminds me of something Jay said a long, long time ago
by HumanRobot , Cybertron, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:06 (1200 days ago) @ HCE
Something like 'losses are fine in theory, but hide the razor blades when they actually happen.' We generally say things like 'I want us to compete, but let's not go down the path of being an Alabama, OSU, or LSU...' and then when we do that and lose in the playoffs to Alabama, it kicks off another round of existential suffering and exploration.
I hate to say it, but unless we go down that path then 2020 is pretty much the apex for ND as a program. But that isn't celebrated. In fact "uNDefeated" type shirts are roundly mocked.
It's a pretty joyless place to be in the hierarchy.
I ♥ wearing my uNDeafeated & Playoff like a Champion today
by KelleyCook , Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 12:27 (1200 days ago) @ HumanRobot
shirts. Pisses the Michigan and Michigan State fans off to no end.
To be clear, The "Remember the Six" one mostly just confuses them though.
We are the 1%
by hobbs, San Diego, CA, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:32 (1200 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
I guess that makes us the "elite"!
I know you are a man of the world/internet
by CW (Rakes) , Harlan County, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:13 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
edited by CW (Rakes), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:16
So I know you know there is a large gap between "Criticizing a player's performance"(which of course I have done, including with Book no duh, what a silly thing to ask) and "What ND fans have said about Ian Book" (which led him to justifiably shush his own home crowd after the VT winner).
Also the Inside The Garage podcast has been really interesting to get first-person details of what these guys are dealing with. ND fans are sending racial slurs to Kyle Hamilton? I think that probably falls outside the realm of "Criticism."
I thought you were conflating this board with twitter
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 07:56 (1200 days ago) @ CW (Rakes)
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall any twitter-style, nasty, personal attacks on Book coming from somebody here (at least not voiced on this forum). It's been in your defined range of "acceptable criticism" I believe. If I've overlooked something I'm all ears. I hope nobody stoops to that, and I hope we can work together on keeping a sane tone. After all, this is a small group of people, most of whom have been conversing here since the founding (including yourself. I consider you a founding member.)
I personally saw a connective tissue of underappreciation
by HullieAndMikes, Yelling at Sam Cane, Dunedin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:05 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
And on occasion would take some flack after defending Book after games like VTech last year (that wind tunnel effect sure got memory holed).
First of all, whatever, small problems especially in 2020. But I think ND fans both here and elsewhere turned into green eyed monsters when looking at OSU, Oklahoma, Clemson and Alabama; yes, it's frustrating to get on the precipice and fail (I was the 2012 BCS, I know), and BK and others deserve continued questions about QB recruiting and development. But it really rubbed me the wrong way, as someone who came of age on the downswing of Lou and into the ensuing disasters, to see such grumbling accompany success.
But, like many other things, that's life.
I bristle at underappreciation of Book here but not
by Mike (bart), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:20 (1200 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
because it's unfair to Book but because I think it's important to realize how much goes into quarterback play beyond passing yards and TDS, especially stuff like ball handling, correct checks, etc
Right, and it's that same underappreciation that leads to
by Jason93 , Raining debris all over Europe, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:44 (1200 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
calls for Drew Pyne over Coan with a side of Buchner.
I'm not suggesting that the conversation isn't one of the fun aspects of being a fan, but I do know better than to think that what I see for a handful of series in game action isn't a proper assessment of any position, let alone D1 QB play.
--
I think the children like it when I "get down" verbally.
I put it in the same bucket as when Tremble got called
by Mike (bart), Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 10:56 (1200 days ago) @ Jason93
"underutilized" (here I think, though I can't remember by whom). This year has shown he was, in fact, one of the most highly centralized pieces of the entire offense; doesn't mean it all showed up in the stat sheet
it'll be interesting to see how ND history treats Book
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:16 (1200 days ago) @ HullieAndMikes
Yes, he won a lot of games (the most!), and he had some electrifying moments, but I don't think he'll be memorialized in the pantheon of great Irish QBs. He was an overachiever but limited in certain QB skills. His one big win gets diluted by the subsequent loss to the same team.
Has anyone else found themselves wishing for Book
by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:36 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
earlier this year as Coan curled into a ball in the back field for the 4th-5th time in a game?
For the record, that is why I loved the up tempo, I think I remember the curl happening only once versus Southern Cal.
The overall CFB market is so much bigger today...
by domer.mq
, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:21 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
It's tough for an Ian Book at ND to reach a "legend" status b/c there are 50 other games on TV every week, and there's plenty of other super stars who aren't play at ND at every position.
I suspect quite a number of ringless ND QBs who garner a lot of attention at Alumni events wouldn't rank so high in so many minds if they had to play in this era.
--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
"Great" Irish QBs of the 2000s
by BPH, San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 08:54 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Are we really only talking about Quinn?
Does Clausen qualify? Does Kizer?
If just one, man, that's really sad.
Quinn, then Book
by Jay , San Diego, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:18 (1200 days ago) @ BPH
Clausen's best QB rating was superior to Book's, and I think given the same personnel around him that Clausen would far outshine Book, but I don't have any issue ranking Ian ahead of him.
Where Book falls on the alltime list is worth considering. I think you'd put him after all the Heisman winners. Then there are NC winners, like Montana, Clements, Hanratty, and Rice. Book ahead of any of them? Then you've got the ringless stars like Theismann, Guglielmi, Mirer, etc. Whither Book?
I was pretty young during the Mirer Era
by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:35 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
But he and Book seem to have some pretty interesting parallels.
I'd probably put Book higher because I'd argue that 1) he probably never lost a game he shouldn't have, and 2) Mirer had much more pure talent surrounding him.
I feel like whenever I watch a Mirer game he's getting
by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 13:12 (1200 days ago) @ Jeremy (WeIsND)
about 90% of his passing yards on screens to Derek Brown.
I think Mirer is a decent comparison to Book, actually. Different eras obviously. Mirer was at the helm of a ridiculously devastating running game, plus Rocket and Brown (and I'm probably forgetting some other guys). But I think similar strengths and weaknesses.
I'd put him with Kevin McDougal
by HCE, Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:32 (1200 days ago) @ Jay
Whatever that means, pantheon-wise, those two are also probably my favorite QBs of my time as an ND fan.