OT: For shits and giggles, Tiger or Jack?

Show your work lol.

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they used Tiger's.

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I have a couple of old drivers that I'll occasionally hit on the range as training devices. They look like hybrids now. If you catch them perfectly they go fine but one hit on the heel or the toe with a new driver is almost a whiff with the old ones.

Tiger always played with shafts that were the same length as Jack's and with irons that were the same lofts, which would be very weak lofts by today's standards. One reason that guys like Phil seem to hit ridiculously little club is that with long shafts and strong lofts, his pitching wedge is about an 8 iron of yore.

I play Ping irons with standard lofts and carry two hybrids and a 3 wood, because I'm not our there to brag about how I hit some par 4 with a driver and a 7 iron. I'm trying to get the ball on the green and into the hole and if it takes a driver and a 4 hybrid I don't care.

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many people could. But man on man is that awesome. Looking down on that one iron today, it looks like there is no damn clubhead at the end of it.

EDIT: Another thing I have always said. I remember having arguments with friends in law school. Tiger's swing was too violent and would certainly lead to physical problems - which it did. Jack's swing so much more fluid and easy on the body.

What really distinguishes those two is their mental/emotional make-up and their self discipline.

I think it's probably push on course but in the end Tiger let the shit get to him off course which bled over to his game. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion. Tiger would have like 25 major championships.

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I remember reading an article very early in his career, maybe even before he won that first Masters, about how he generated so much power with his swing and just how much torque was involved. As you said, that was bound to catch up with him sooner or later, even setting aside the other stuff that accelerated his health issues.

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Tiger's hitting 7 iron.

I kid. It's a legendary shot.

(Tiger's hitting 7 iron)

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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He'd have been off the green if he didn't hit the stick.

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Those blades he played put a lot of spin on the ball and the balata covers were really soft, and he hit it dead solid. It would have grabbed after another bounce or two. There was 30 feet of green behind the pin. Hitting the stick gave him a 2. But he probably would have made 3 if it hadn't.

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in 1972 with a balata ball in those conditions with that equipment. Tiger hits a one iron, if he knows how.

Hell, I hit a stock 7 iron today from 175 and when I was 25 (28 years ago) my stock 7 iron was about 165.

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Sorry. I'm probably not taking this conversation as seriously as others.

I will say this in all seriousness: Jack Nicklaus is an asshole of a course designer who resents normal golfers making good shots.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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fooled me.

You need to play the up tees.

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Tiger's collapse is really interesting.

There seems to be a significant ingredient of his Dad planting some weird values in his head. Seems like Tiger was a dorky kid who had NO idea how to be himself as a celebrity. There was a famous story about how Tiger was at a club with Jordan and Barkley and asked those guys how to talk to women. They stared at him and then told him "Just tell them you're Tiger Woods." I think the superstar life really messed him up.

Then there was the weird part of him who felt compelled to go work out with the SEALS, which undoubtedly hastened his physical decline.

And his unnecessary swing change after his falling-out with Butch. I've also felt that his switch to Nike equipment was at least a little detrimental. Especially the putter.

I'm not in any way dismissing Tiger's personal struggles as being a victim of circumstance or anything like that. But I think he was wired differently than most sports superstars (especially of that era) and there were some unique things in his story.

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It was like the middle of Tiger's career and someone asked Jack if Jack thought Tiger would overtake his major tourney #.

I can't find it but Jack said something like "it would not surprise me but hell Tiger is not even married yet. Long way to go especially when life starts really coming at you."

I probably read too much into that but I thought Jack was daring Tiger to get married. Tiger was married within the year.

Fast forward and he is divorced in 2010 having not won a major for a few years and, IIRC, having even missed a few.

Tiger shoulda never got married.

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I agree about Jones, but that was back in the era where professional golfers were viewed sort of like professional poker or pool players are now.

Hogan coming back from that auto wreck and winning 13 majors puts him in the conversation.

I think it was the 1960 U.S. Open at Cherry Hills in when three generations converged. It was the only U.S. Open Palmer won. Back then they played 36 holes on Saturday. Palmer was well back but swore he was going to shoot 65 in the afternoon. He drove the green on the short par four first hole and went on a birdie barrage and shot 65.

Hogan and Nicklaus (then a 20 year old amateur) we playing together and at various points had the lead but fell back and Palmer beat Nicklaus by two. Hogan (who had a mean streak) told the press that he knew they were going to write that he choked, but he played with a kid (Nicklaus, of course) who could have won the Open by 10 shots if he'd made a putt.

Palmer had other chances to win the U.S. Open. He lost in a playoff in 1962 to Nicklaus. As famous as Palmer was for charging forward, he charged backward almost as frequently. He had something like a 7 shot lead on the back 9 the last round at Olympic Club, but fell apart and Billy Casper started holing everything he looked at and Casper won.

On Hogan's mean streak, he once said to Casper: "It's a damn good thing you putt like you do, because you hit the ball like shit."

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we are talking about peaks and not necessarily longevity.

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that he quit early in his career.

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you who haven't read it, it's about the transition from amateur to professional golf as the more prestigious. And it focuses on a match played at Cypress after the old Bing Crosby Clambake (now the AT&T). It was Nelson and Ken Venturi against Hogan and Harvey Ward. A really, really fun read.

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https://www.gsga.org/hall-of-fame/members/hobart_manley_jr

travelled in those circles. He is mentioned in Bob Hope's Book "Confessions of a Hooker" where Hope (IIRC) recalls a story of Hobart getting naked in a UK castle putting on a authentic coat of armor and running around the castle after a woman.

At the North South Amateur someone tries to set Hobart up on a date with some woman named Winnie, but Hobart passes because she is not "that kind of girl" Winnie ends up on a date with Arnold Palmer... That is straight from Hobart.

Arnold used to say he wouldn't have as many Masters if Hobart had been serious about golf. Hobart showed up to the first tee on one state Open in a tux from the night before.

My best friend's dad was a helluva a player in the day and had a game at the Savanah Inn one afternoon. woke up with Hobart in the Bahamas the next morning. Ms. Brennan told Mr. Brannan "me or the booze" and to his great credit he never drank again.

So many great stories.

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His "Greatest Game Ever Played" about Ouimet and the 1913 US Open might be better than The Match (which is heavily based upon Venturi's recollections, and thus must be taken with a measure of salt).

The stories about the Open are almost too perfect to believe. The movie with Shia is fine, but misses the detail and historical background Frost provides.

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"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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I agree with below that Tiger faced a tougher field than Jack. There was no Arnie but the field was so much deeper and Tiger didn't just dominate that field, he demolished them. Look at how large a victory he had in these tournaments:

97 Masters, 12 strokes
00 US Open, 15(!) strokes, he was the only one under par and he was -12
00 Open, 8 strokes
05 Open, 5 strokes
06 PGA, 5 strokes

Also, I think we're underselling Tiger's 19 Masters win. He had the hottest golfer in the world with Koepka breathing down his neck and he hit his tee shot on 16 within 6 inches of the cup. That being said, I'd still take Jacks win at the 86 masters as the best golf moment ever.

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than Jack. In Jack's day, you had to win to make real money.

Even before Tiger (but certainly starting in the Tiger era), there was enough money on tour that guys could cash huge checks just by playing good golf. And Tiger helped attract sponsor dollars that went to another level. Tiger had some really, really talented opponents, but I think the ability to make a ton of money without figuring out how to win the tournament dulled the competitive edge of lots of guys.

It goes to why my favorite record of Tiger's is the cuts made streak. He never showed up, decided on his front nine on Friday that he just didn't "have it" that week, coast in, and hop on the plane home. I think lots of guys have been guilty of that. In Jack's era, in contrast, guys were more motivated to finish "in the money."

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Some guys that maybe had real talent in Jacks day couldn't stick around to see if they would "find it", leaving the tour and finding real jobs. Think of a guy like Rocco Mediate. Decent golfer who was capable of putting up a score but didn't win a ton early. Does that type of guy stick around in Jacks day? Probably not. Rocco was good, he won 6 times on tour, but didn't get his first until he was almost 30.

While I agree, you get guys that will take the weekend off after a rough Thursday, the pure depth of talent on the tour during Tigers run was tons deeper than Jacks. It's like the kiddie pool vs an Olympic diving pool.

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I get that the level of competition was technically higher, but there weren't a lot of what I'd consider historic greats pushing Woods during those years. Plenty of major wins where the main challenger was Rocco Mediate or Chris DiMarco or somebody like that.

The PGA guys today are fucking soft as hell, IMO.

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real pressure is playing a $40 Nassau with $20 in your pocket?

Nicklaus played against Champions. I get that I discounted the fact Tiger had more opponents, I get that. But Palmer, Trevino, Miller, Player, Watson etc were guys who were there to win. Not get second or a paycheck. Many of them made amazing shots or runs to beat him. They actually battled.

Tom Watson was his perfect foil. That chip in was awesome. A guy who knew how to battle.

Anyways, great posts everyone. Lots of fun.

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I know that there was kind of a Pantheon of greats challenging Nicklaus for the entire 70s and into the 80s, but Tiger has had just a never-ending series of guys getting white-hot for a year or two and then usurped by the next guy.

I'm not sure what is more difficult.... dealing with Trevino and Watson every single week forever, or getting the career year of the David Duvals and Justin Speiths and Dustin Johnsons and ZACH Johnsons and Vijay Singhs and then when you're getting older it's these terminators like Brooks Koepka and Bryson DeChambeau.... AND the whole time there's Phil and Rory.

It's just this assembly line of dudes, every year a new model arrives, and you beat them, and then there's a whole new model year showing up again.

Maybe what I'm getting at is... is the competition just in general better now? More people involved around the world = a shorter time at the top for anyone except the Immortal Tiger (and kind of Phil and Rory?)

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If he cared as much about the proper tournaments as he did his money matches (or the rest of his wagering portfolio), I guess he could have been a legitimate historic great. But I've always considered him a choke and a chump and a degenerate.

About 70% of Mickelson's fan support could be chalked up to (1) being left-handed and (2) having a girlfriend/wife that a lot of golf fans considered to be unusually attractive. I've always been puzzled by his appeal.

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Won 3/4 of the majors and only missed out on the one tournament where you could conceivably label him a choker, where he has six 2nd place finishes.

Understand not liking his personality, but I think you're understating his success.

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though he's still good and probably will win more. I have little doubt that the 100th best golfer of today is much better than the 100th best golfer in 1980. That probably cuts both directions, though. In Nicklaus's prime there were always guys who had been in contention in majors many times and weren't easily intimidated.

I remember in the 3rd round of the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach that Tiger won by 15 shots; he was paired with Bjorn, a fine golfer. I told my wife "Bjorn isn't going to break 80." And he didn't. The intimidation factor and the massive throng of the gallery 12 deep was too much for anybody but Tiger.

Nicklaus had some of that too. Players always said they could tell a regular birdie roar from a Nicklaus roar. When Nicklaus made that eagle on 15 in 1986 it was like a bomb went off, and then he nearly aced 16 with Ballesteros in the fairway on 15, who then proceeded to chunk one into the water short and made a 6.

Norman, tied with Nicklaus standing in the fairway on 18, proceeded to half shank one into the gallery.

That definitely helped Tiger in 2019. Everyone else could hear the gallery going nuts and they knew what was going on.

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no art in their game.

Here is a damn golfer:

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Stadler, Lumpy, two gloves, Finau(?) - I guess anyone who came through The Big Break.

Trevino, Hagen

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The depth of the field makes it so much harder to win. If Jack, Arnie, and Gary had to face the depth that the field was for Tiger, I doubt they would have racked up as many majors.

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Europeans are grittier.

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for basically the last two decades of the Ryder Cup. The US players are used to fairways and greens and cashing checks. And the Euros are used to playing under greater individual pressure.

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I wasn’t familiar with the Genesis car brand.
I learned that it’s a next gen luxury car co. Sure looks they have advanced safety features. The fact that Tiger has no head or internal injuries after going that far off the road and rolling multiple times in an obviously high speed wreck is pretty good news. Take a look at that car and you’d assume more than badly broken legs.
I realize his legs are his meal ticket and this is probably the end of his career but this could have been fatal.

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Lexus is to Toyota and Acura is to Honda.

Hyundai cars are actually pretty good, but are stuck with the low quality cars that debuted in the U.S. 20 or more years ago. The Genesis automobiles are much pricier.

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They spun the accolades that car won into an entirely new brand.

We have a Hyundai Palisade which is a very nice luxury SUV at a much nicer price than more established luxury brands.

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Bought a 2014 Sonata with 30K miles on it about four years ago. Price was very good and I haven't had one issue with it. It's nice looking to boot.

On the other hand, my wife's 2015 Nissan Rogue was about twice the price and it's already had issues with the battery and the heating system. I'd buy another Sonata in a heartbeat.

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Throw em out Marianne.

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(Elantra?) for my daughter when she started college. We were trying to get a Honda Fit, which we had gotten for my son four years earlier. We went to the Honda dealer and they weren't going to have any in for four months. We looked at a Civic, but I had no interest in it for her because the visibility was terrible. It had narrow slits of windows in the back and it scared me, because the only way to know whether someone was in the lane next to you was your mirrors, and they could be in the blind spot. This was before all the technology to warn you about that stuff.

So we got her the Hyundai and it was the perfect car for someone not really attuned to car maintenance. It had a 100K mile warranty and it just ran and ran and ran for 10 years and then she sold it to my youngest son. It still looked pretty good.

The Honda Fit is still going at 150K miles. My son hit a median on it and it knocked the transmission out of it, but we found a replacement in a salvage yard and had my son-in-law install it and it's still going. It has a salvage title now, but after 14 years and 150K miles.

But yeah, I'm a Hyundai fan.

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And am motivated by the differences in technology.

That said, Jack’s record of second places in majors allows him to keep the title in my sun and wine addled mind.

However, if I had to make a bet on one of them to win a tournament against each other playing at their peak, I am taking Tiger.

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Nolan Ryan isn't the biggest freak of dominant games because he threw 7 no hitters. He is the biggest American Bad Ass because he threw 12 one hitters, 18 two hitters and 31 three hitters.

He had so many chances to get a no hitter because he was always so close. And so focused to do that certain thing. Get everyone out.

Jack was all about the majors. He knew it would define him. He was so close so many more times. And I would argue OD's point about competition. I would argue it loud and hard. Amazing golfers existed during Jack's time. Guys who knew how to win and knew how to compete.

No question Tiger is amazing, and I have rooted for him so hard and enjoyed his excellence so much. He brought such excitement to the game, and dominated during his time. But Jack is simply the guy.

Just my opinion.

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at the gap once one looks beyond the major victories. I'm not old enough to have seen Jack in his prime. I know he had great distance, but I don't know if he hit some of the same "holy shit" shots that Tiger did. I also haven't looked to see if Jack ever destroyed majors the way Tiger did at Augusta in 97 or Pebble and Saint Andrews in 2000. But at the end of the day, Jack has more better performances in the majors, and that's what both guys cared about most.

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There’s a lot of luck in throwing a no hitter. A 1 or 2 hitter is essentially the same thing. Dominant.
I’m a big Verlander fan as a Detroiter and have watched many outings from him that were lights out dominating even though he gave up a couple hits.

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Tiger did have the most dominant stretch of any modern player, until it all came tumbling down. Moreover, Tiger probably faced a deeper field of opponents. Nicklaus, however, faced a lot of steely opponents like Palmer, Trevino, Weiskopf, Watson, Johnny Miller, and others.

But both of them focused on majors. While it seemed inevitable that Tiger would overtake Nicklaus's record 18, it now seems virtually certain that Tiger won't. Nicklaus not only won 18 majors, he finished in the top two 37 times. Woods only has two second place finishes.

Nicklaus finished second in the U.S. Open as an amateur at age 20, won two in one season at age 40, and stormed down the back side at Augusta in 30 shots to become the oldest major winner ever at 46. Tiger's victory at age 43 after a long, long drought was special, but it wasn't the 1986 Master's.

On top of it, Nicklaus barely played the Senior Tour, but somehow managed to win eight Senior majors.

Nicklaus revolutionized the game. He played without specialized lob wedges, spin optimized titanium drivers, balls with radical characteristics, and all the rest. He could hit it farther than anyone in his prime and nobody (maybe until Tiger) was a better clutch putter. When someone wins 19 majors and the Master's at age 47, I will believe he's better than Nicklaus -- and not before.

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The Tiger era had a great many more championship level golfers and a lot more players period.
It was a tighter circle in Jack’s day. Fewer guys who could jump up and win the big ones.
It’s hard to compare players in different eras in most sports. The games change so much.
These are the two most dominant players of all time by far. I vote for both.

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for his entire career hearing people wondering (and even expecting) him to prove he's the greatest. I think it's hard to overestimate the general psychic wear and tear of that kind of pressure. And really, the back-half of Tiger's story shows what that can do to a person.

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haven't had much staying power. Guys like Spieth had a couple of great years and then submerged. Only a few -- Mickelson, DJ -- have stayed good for a long time. Nicklaus had to deal with Palmer ahead of him and Watson behind him, and guys like Trevino and Floyd who were good for a long time and won multiple majors.

Tiger had the best 12 or so years in golf history. Jack had the best career.

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In golf it's never you vs anyone. It's you vs the course. And Tiger's field is just so much deeper in terms of an "any given weekend, anyone in the field can beat the course" context. Jack had a handful of guys who could really maybe keep up any given Sunday and then a field of folks that were, to be frank, much more part-timers.

There's just an army of deep talent today. And really I think Tiger caused a lot of that army to get even deeper.

As for "greater," I don't really know what to say there. I think they're both playing in very different eras, very different games. Just in the 90s is was amazing to see anyone drive the ball over 300 yards outside of the tour. Now half the weekend duffers can do it. Jack's right that the ball, more than anything, is just so different today. It's not just obscenely longer. It's much truer. I guess I just don't think there's a real answer here.

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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And, over the long haul, Jack takes that.

Also, the argument that Tiger brought out the best in so many other players is true. But so did Jack. And without Jack (or maybe even more so, Arnie) there may be no Tiger.

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there would be no LeBron without Jordan.

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Jordan with the more dominant peak, LeBron with the longevity, leading to higher aggregate numbers.

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the Polo Grounds

OT: For shits and giggles, Tiger or Jack?

Jack if Tiger and Jack use Jack's equipment and Tiger if

Interesting hypothesis --

I mean, I am not saying Tiger could not hit this shot:

Good point on Tiger's swing.

LOL 219. Wind in the face...

Sorry but that is like Jordan banking a three-pointer

Back fringe at worst --

Absolutley positively no way tiger hits a 7 iron

I was being facetious.

I thought you were but the follow up parenthetical

Good Lord. I've never seen that one. And the psychology of

I had a theory that Jack purposefully fucked with Tiger.

follow up: is there anybody else in the conversation?

Ben Hogan.

Nelson belongs in the conversation, too. At least when

Yes on the status of pro golfer in Jones's era. So much so

The book, "The Match" is my favorite golf book. For those of

Love that Book. This guy:

Everything golf-related by Frost (the author) is great

Bobby Jones.

LeBron

mini Ditka

With a late field goal.

Peak Tiger, career Jack.

In terms of Tour competition, I think Tiger had it easier

Cuts the other way though also.

Agree with this.

Wasn't it Player who said

I think Trevino said that but, hey, point taken!

Rory has been very good for a very long time.

Phil can eat a bag of dicks, btw.

Three Masters titles, T14th all time in major wins with five

He hasn't won a major since 2014 --

And they are all a bunch of fucking robots. Little to

Damn. I thought for sure this was going to be Stadler.

That's a good one, USA tour players who could be European.

This I totally disagree with.

Kinda like the difference in the Euro golfers v. US.

Have we had this conversation? I do blame the same dynamic

Maybe, but we are on the same page no matter.

Hijack: a p.s. re Tiger’s accident

Genesis is to Hyundai as

Yes. The Hyundai Genesis was their first luxury sedan.

I'm a Hyundai fan

We bought Hyundai's base model sedan

I loved watching them both

You and OD made my point

Yep. I agree. I did the research a while ago and was floored

Great point re Ryan

Jack --

One point in Tiger’s favor

Another point was that Jack didn't have to play

Although a lot of the young guns

I guess I view it very differently...

Not so much you v the course; it's more you versus you.

Good point. It's a bit of an analogy to the argument that

Might end up being same as MJ vs. LeBron debate

I know better.