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first drive, 3rd & 3 on the UGA 22

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:32
edited by Jay, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:00

Driskell pointed out this play as an example of the learning curve Wimbush is climbing right now, and how (on this play) he is rushing through his reads instead of being patient.

I've got it cued up here:

https://youtu.be/8emD60kZemk?t=4m38s

* it's an interesting personnel group, 1 RB Adams, 1 TE Smythe, and 3 WR Finke, Boykin & Young

* formation looks like this. Smythe lines up wide and motions in.

[image]

* routes:

[image]

The play features four receivers running routes plus Adams releasing, with a primary read of Smythe setting down over the middle. But he is covered, and instead of waiting a tick for Finke and/or Young to break open (which they do), he rushes right to Adams in the flat (and misfires). A pass to Finke was an easier throw and a guaranteed first down pickup (and probably some YAC); a throw to Young downfield would need some touch to not get too deep, but it's a big gainer.

Anyway, watch Wimbush lock onto Smythe, and then a quick scan and right to Adams. He has good protection, so it's not like he was under duress.

https://youtu.be/8emD60kZemk?t=4m38s

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good thread. thanks, everybody

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 14:32 @ Jay

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Had this happened the play before?

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:58 @ Jay

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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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I would respectfully disagree

by Larz, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:49 @ Jay

I'm at work so i haven't been able to stop the play and really break it down, but I don't see this as a major issue. First, Georgia ends up overreacting and double covering Smythe. So obviously don't throw it to him. But why wouldn't you teach your QB to throw it to your really fast running back who is being covered by a linebacker, especially when the linebacker is a little late getting on the coverage? Seems that the coaching staff would say, if you have Adams one on one with a linebacker, throw it to Adams

You could argue that the next step in the progression would be to throw it to the receiver (young) but I'm not sure if you noticed the safety from the backside rotating to the middle. He may have been a danger to make a play on the deep in by young. Can't tell for sure watching on my phone. Personally, on third and three I probably like a throw to my running back vs a linebacker.

As for reading Finke as part of the progression, this seems like a half field read to me. Why would you coach someone to look to Smythe first and then to Finke next on that progression? How do those two patterns relate and work together. I guess you could argue that if the linebackers overreacted to Smythe maybe you would throw to Finke. I just don't think you set your read progression like that. Look to the right. Then go quickly back to the left for a throw that is all timing and then go back to the right and look deep and then look shallow. That doesn't make sense to me.

Seems more logical to say if they double team your stud tight end and rotate the backside safety to help with the in route and one of your fastest most explosive players is one on one with a linebacker. Throw it to the explosive player.

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good rebuttal

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:51 @ Larz

* on the question of how do the Smythe and Finke patterns work together, it almost looks like an intentional rub. They cross within feet of each other.

* on the Adams throw, if he is indeed the next best option, shouldn't have Wimbush waited for Adams to cut it upfield? When he threw it, Adams was still going straight at the sideline. Or should Adams have cut sooner?

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Good questions

by Larz, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:34 @ Jay

In terms of Finke. The problem with a crossing route is away from where the pattern starts. So if you are running a complimentary pattern you need something that will move the linebacker away from where Finke starts. I don't think Smythe's route does that. Against straight man, it's just a decision to throw if your guy beats his guy to the inside. But that typically wouldn't be a second read, it would be a first read because it is a quick hitter. The longer you wait to throw the shallow crosser the worse that play is. So you could have Smythe and Finke cross and look to make a quick throw to one of the two. But to wait for him to clear in that situation seems odd to me and there was a lot of traffic there initially. I just done see how a late throw to a crosser on the opposite side is part of logical read progression

As for Adams I'd have to watch the play again. But his pattern seemed off to me. Almost as if he rounded it instead of cutting it off square.

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We all see different things.

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:38 @ Larz

I only watched it in real time and then the initial replay and I thought the throw was off (still think it was) but Adams clearly should have turned up into WIDE open space and he walks in.

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"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

by San Pedro, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 15:51 @ Chris

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hmmm....

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:13 @ Jay

when they show the replay from the QB's perspective, you can see that wimbush wets his feet with a decided orientation to the right side of the field. Maybe it is a half field read (though it seems like a weird one to me, I'd confess). maybe he set hsi feet too far to one side and got locked in. Regardless, at the time Wimbush pulls the trigger it's pretty clear that he doesn't have a good angle of attack on the throw

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Weird progression?

by Larz, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:50 @ Mike (bart)

You've got a curl pattern, flat pattern, and deep in all to the same side. When I draw those patterns up, they make perfect sense and work well together. Basic read progression (which could be changed ) would be the standard deep to short read. If safety stays deep throw the curl. If safety comes up throw the deep in. If neither are there throw to the back or tuck and run. (although they likely had a different progression on this play because it was short yardage, probably start with Smythe go to Adams next) . To my eye, reading Smythe, then reading someone else, then reading Finke on the other side of the field, then back to Adams seems odd.

Conceptually this one side read it isn't much different from corner/dig/flat progressions (often used agaisnt cover 2) which is one of the most common progressions

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But we dont seem to be threatening the corner at all.

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 11:15 @ Larz

Its not quite a triangle stretch. I could see that if there was some type of deep route or clearout to the right side. If Smythe were going vertical it would make more sense to me, both as a play and as a reason for smythe being first read

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I think it's the linebacker that's being stretched

by Larz, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 11:42 @ Mike (bart)

He had Finke coming underneath, Smythe curling up beside him and Adams crossing his face and releasing to the out. If it's man cover, the corner isn't an issue because he's bailed deep with the reciever. If it's two cover my guess is Young probably settles instead and comes back to the ball. Although I suspect they anticipated man coverage on this one. In short yardage you are probably reading the backer first instead of the safety. But maybe not!

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Hmm... One thing that strikes me there

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:48 @ Jay
edited by Brendan, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:54

is that aside from Adams, all of the route action is from the middle of the field to the left. Like they were giving Wimbush a half-field read to the left and a checkdown to Adams, and he only made the first read and then checked down.

I don't think it's actually all that complicated a read, given that you have everybody going to the same side of the field. Look for the easy pickup on the stick, if it's not there see if Finke or Young are coming open (should have been pretty much in the same line of sight), if that's not there take the safety valve. It's like Wimbush panicked and took the safety valve right away.

EDIT: Another thing strikes me, actually. Young, Boykin, and Finke, who many said should've gotten more time (including me, at least for Young and Finke), were all in on a crucial third down play on our first drive. I'm going to guess that they and other guys not named Dexter got more time than we realized and were just invisible because we missed opportunities with them. Sigh.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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on your edit, re: snaps

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:04 @ Brendan

Is anybody at 18S doing snap counts this year? B&G used to do them, and I posted the one they did for Temple, but I'm not sure it's 100% accurate.

Anyway, that surprised me too that you'd have a Boykin / Finke / Young group in there on a critical down so early in the game.

(I was wondering if EQ was supposed to be part of that group. Driskell mentioned that several times during the game, EQ disappointingly "tapped out". I don't know if this was one of those occasions.)

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I don't think anyone is counting them for us

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:11 @ Jay

I'm not one of the film breakdown guys - I just play one on TV - so I'm not sure if they're planning on it, but pretty much all of us happen to be in a time crunch right now so we're outsourcing much of the statistical compilation. I know Eric relies on the B&G recaps for his articles; I don't think I've seen any other sources out there.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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assuming Smythe is 1

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:54 @ Brendan

I'm guessing Young is 2 (same line of sight) and Finke is 3. I think Boykin is just clearing the coverage. Adams is the outlet.

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think you guys are right

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:57 @ Jay

the motion across the formation of Smythe successfully rolled the coverage to the right. From there, a primary read on the stick route for a right handed QB would have the defense reading the offense's right as the play side, giving a nice window for crossing routes to come open

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A good pass to anybody...

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:39 @ Jay

including Adams, was at least a first down.

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A pass to Adams with ANY loft on it....

by MattG, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:01 @ PMan

....would likely have been a TD.

It wouldn't even have to be a good pass. Just put some air under it ANYWHERE where Adams can run under it.

Adams had his man beat.

The CB was running full speed in the wrong direction trying to chase down Young.

In fact - with three receivers running drags R-L, and Adams releasing a bit late into the R flat, it kind of looks like he was the primary intended receiver, and the play worked absolutely perfectly.

Except Wimbush threw a laser over the wrong shoulder. Just lob it and it's 6.

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I remeber that one vividly.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:02 @ MattG

He could have jogged the rest of the way.

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Adams running a wheel route would've been a nifty play

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:05 @ MattG

and might have gotten the result you describe. Lofting a pass out on that flat-route trajectory is really hard! It's like a 30 yard throw, and the sideline is coming up quickly - and you can't slow Adams down at all or he won't get the first down

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The route he was running was pretty useless.

by MattG, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:12 @ Mike (bart)

And yes - a needlessly difficult throw. Could "dead sprint toward the sideline" really have been the planned route?

Turn it upfield on the wheel route into 20 yards that have been completely vacated by the defense, and run under the ball.

I think the only defender who had a potential play was standing flat-footed 5 yards deep in the endzone when the catch would have been made. I like Adams' chances there.

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it's a standard flat route

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:18 @ MattG

Though it's hard to say why it wasn't a wheel route. I can see perhaps the idea that having Adams run to the flat would, in a straight zone situation, potentially place the LB covering Smythe into conflict, but the timing of it seems pretty janky. it took Adams a while to get out into his route.

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As an amateur football watcher

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:33 @ Mike (bart)

I have to say that I've never understood the flat route concept. Its a very difficult throw even when its not defended well, and never seems to net more than a handful of yards. Why does it seem to crop up so often, particularly in our offense?

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it's a constraint

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:16 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

it both stops flat corners from sinking too deep in cover 2 situations and stops defenses from squeezing down on hook/curl routes too aggressivel. They're best paired with bootlegs/waggle action (which I think (though i might be making this up) was how they originated), as they're much easier throws and catches on the run than from a standing position

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looking at the replay from behind the QB

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:44 @ PMan

Adams can probably make a reception on a good ball, but that's got to be a much higher degree of difficulty throw for Wimbush. He's got to loft it over the defender and ahead of him.

Meanwhile, Finke is like, hello!

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that's a very hard pass

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:42 @ PMan

you almost wish Wimbush had held the ball a count longer and let Adams flip his shoulders upfield - would have been a ton easier of a throw

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yeah noticed that

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:39 @ Jay

a better way of what I meant when I said "decisive in all the worst ways." Hopefulyl this type of development comes quickly with game reps. My worry would be that Long's offense is so contingent on post-snap reads and decision making that "decision making" itself becomes a conscious thing.

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rushing the reads

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:49 @ Mike (bart)

With this play and others, it looks like Wimbush is holding the ball too long, or committing to the run too soon.

And the irony is that despite holding it, he's not being slow in his reads, he's actually too fast, and ends up running out of options too quickly as a result. If the game can slow down for him, I think he'll start seeing these opportunities.

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I think as soon as he saw the way the LB was playing Smythe

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 08:55 @ Jay

he should have looked to Finke immediately. Seems like GA was in a pretty clear pattern matching scheme (man coverage if your guy goes vertical, play zone if he goes horizontal). If the primary read (Smythe) was covered with man technique, Wimbush should have looked to Finke because either a) if Georgia was in true man coverage a shallow cross would stand a good chance of being open and b) if he recognized pattern matching it would allow him to shift sides of the field rather easily and quickly. E.g., he would have moved the zone-playing LBs with his eyes, giving him a nice window to zip it in there to the shallow crosser.

it is weird that he moved to pass to Adams so quickly, especially since the fact of #3 picking up Adams was directly within his (Wimbush's) field of vision.

Tommy Rees would've made this play

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Seeing the play like this is immensely frustrating

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:08 @ Mike (bart)

And, as an aside, is another example of why I'm often hesitant to criticize individual play calls - there are a myriad of reasons why a play might not have worked beyond "that was a shitty play." This, in fact, was a pretty good play that sprung two guys, and our noob QB kluged it up.

As frustrating as it is, the optimist in me takes some solace from it as well. Tommy Rees would've made the play because he was really good at reading things. Late 2015 Kizer (and probably pre-crushed-soul 2016 Kizer) would've made it. It's understandable, at least, that Wimbush might miss it given his dearth of live game action. Like Jay says, if the game slows down for him, he should start hitting these.

Now, that's definitely an if and not a when. The game is littered with the carcasses of guys for whom it never slowed down. But we can hope.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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there are bad play calls, but this was not one of them

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:16 @ Brendan

still, I think it's more of a foreboding sign than a hopeful one that Wimbush missed this. The guy's been in the program for a long time. Entirely likely that he gets it together but I think we should have a higher standard of expectation for his level fo play right now. This probably wasn't a terribly difficult assignment.

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Eh, I don't know

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:37 @ Mike (bart)

This spring was the first time he really got intensive reps above QB3. He went into fall 2015 as an afterthought behind Zaire and Kizer, who himself had been an afterthought behind Zaire and Golson in the spring. So not only was he QB3, but QB2 was much rawer than he normally would be and needed a lot more attention than usual. Then Zaire goes down in game 2, and all of a sudden QB2 is QB1 and needs even more attention.

Then we get to fall 2016, and once again he's QB3 behind Kizer and Zaire, and not only that, but there's (absurdly) a QB competition that probably that probably ate up even more reps from his meager allotment. So spring ball this year was the first time he really had the full attention of the coaches.

Should he have been better developed before now? Probably. I don't think there were any real failures in 2015, but I think the mismanagement of the QB1 role in 2016 had a trickle-down effect. Unfortunately they had to get him a cup of coffee in 2015 in case something happened to Kizer; I'm sure it would've been better for his development if he could've redshirted in 2015 and seen some action here and there in 2016 (which assumes we wouldn't have face-planted and gone down to the wire in nearly every game in 2016, but I digress).

I'm not throwing out the baby with the bath water just yet. Let's see how he does in the next few weeks.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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+1

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 12:53 @ Brendan

I was about to post these exact sentiments, and you said it much better than I ever could.

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At night, the ice weasels come.

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That's why I get paid to do this, man

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 20:38 @ Jeff (BGS)

Wait... Aw, shit.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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you have to give him more runway than that

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:23 @ Mike (bart)

He's in his second career start, his first big game against a big defense. He hasn't started since high school. He has lots of room to get better. Not everybody can be DeShone Kizer, amazing right out of the box.

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Completely agree.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:42 @ Jay
edited by Domer99, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 11:01

I mean a little over 2 years in the program or not, that's something that comes with time and experience.

Whenever anyone plays scout team, you aren't really trying to "think" football as much as you are trying to simulate whatever the other team is doing. And since there was no real viable opportunity for him to see the field last year, I doubt any coach was spending the requisite development time for him to recognize these issues. And not just that, he wasn't reading that type of defense as a high schooler especially with as much natural talent he had.

I get Mike's impatience. We all are a bit restless. But I fear this is a case where our impatience with Kelly is unfairly projected onto Wimbush. Maybe saying he's a 2nd time starter is unfairly underselling his experience, but we also can't pretend like he's ever faced any similar situation before that remotely resembles anything close to Georgia's defense.

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Game experience counts for a lot.

by KGB, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:44 @ Domer99

In the midst of a variety of other issues, I think that the lack of continuity at QB throughout Kelly's tenure has been the greatest hindrance on the offensive side. Now take a guy, regardless of the talent level, who has one career start under his belt and pair him with a fairly pedestrian receiving corps and an experienced, well-regarded OL that almost can't wait to shit all over itself every time they face a legitimate challenge, and it's not such a puzzle figuring out why he may have underperformed.

Of course, I don't expect any of these things to actually change, nor does it explain how ND just lost a game to a quarterback who was even less experienced than ours.

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You crack me up

by APND02 ⌂ @, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 20:08 @ KGB

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I'm not calling him a bum!

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:28 @ Jay

I'm just saying he wasn't very good on Saturday. Like a 4.5 out of 10. The difference between him playing like that and, say, a 6 out of 10, was probably the difference between us winning and losing. That margin is decisive and a bit of a bummer given how hyped the dude was prior to the season

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I read your comment as seeing him closer to

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 09:34 @ Mike (bart)

"finished product" rather than what he is, a rookie. I see all kinds of potential with Wimbush, apart from the obvious physical traits. He seems like a studious guy, a very hard worker who cares about getting better. I think with more live reps he'll keep climbing, just like any fresh player with a lot of talent would, in any sport.

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I had just hoped he'd have a higher floor

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 10:16 @ Jay

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