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I suspect this one will be taken a bit more seriously.

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:25

I really didn't understand the upside of Swarbrick taunting those responsible for the initial ad.

Tags:
big picture

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I like the new ad. Any of you who don't

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 15:41 @ Mobster

I'll buy you a shot of Bushmills should we ever meet.

Fire Swarbrick? Fuck Swarbrick, smarmy prick.

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Why?

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:10 @ Mobster

It's still looks incredibly petulant.

And its still poorly designed.

---
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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is anybody here in on the planning of these things?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:06 @ Mobster

[ No text ]

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I have to confess

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 18:07 @ Jay

Greg is

---
At night, the ice weasels come.

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Also, and I hate to give these people advice

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:14 @ Mobster

but if you want to create an effective campaign, buying ads isn't going to do anything. Direct action is the only thing that gets results.

NOTE: posting on the Internet is not "direct action"

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To me, nothing says professionalism like a Gmail email

by Pat (Moco), Slave Den, Brian Cook's Basement, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:24 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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It won't be taken seriously

by Eric M, Western New York, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:39 @ Mobster

Do we really need to dance around this?

These ads are coming from NDN, which is a place that is widely mocked by a large segment of Irish fans and virtually every non-ND fan in existence.

As such, everything they do will be dismissed. Is that fair? I don't know, but there's been so much bandwidth devoted to absolutely vial things said about Notre Dame and its leaders for years. You've kind of made your bed and now you have to live in it. Even if you believe the worst of Notre Dame, at best, it's assholes yelling at assholes.

The wider college football world just isn't this tone deaf. Add in the conspiracy accusations, complaining that no one cares about standards and holding people accountable, and the awkward acceptance of social media led by a Trump parody account--well, there just isn't much legitimacy.

Additionally, the people who see this as illegitimate know what's lurking behind it all. And that's full of Jon Gruden and Steve Orsini love letters.

To quote Tony Montana:

"What should I know? Why do you have to talk to me like that all the time? Like I got to know something?"

Zero titles and an end to Notre Dame's traditions. Wow. Who are they trying to convince here? Is there a guy in Mishawaka waking up today, seeing this ad and saying to himself, "That's right Kelly hasn't won a major bowl game has he? Yeah, let's fire this guy!"

Where it's coming from, what they want, and how they're going about doing it. It's a waste of time and money. No one will take it seriously. I'd say there might be some opportunity to change things but I believe that's a lost cause.

---
-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

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Some good points there.

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 12:56 @ Eric M

I agree that they're campaigning from the bed they've slept in. In terms of 'accountability', they're totally responsible for the position they find themselves. They can't separate their message from the messenger.

They also undermine their credibility by going after Swarbrick. He's just about universally respected as one of the best ADs in the country. And that's earned respect. Regardless of whether Swarbrick is guilty in all of this, going after him reduces the possible success of their goal to get Kelly fired.

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Do we know where the silent majority really is at?

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:55 @ Eric M

There was a low chance Trump wins the election... then he does.

When students were organizing to protest Ty, support interest emerged as well. Is it telling that there really isn't support for Swarbrick and Kelly matching the protest?

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That's a good question

by Eric M, Western New York, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 19:01 @ HumanRobot

1) I just recently met a few co-workers who are ND fans and it's always interesting to listen to people who aren't waist deep in everything that goes on with the football program. For better or worse, these people enormously outnumber "us" here. Common sense, I know. But I have to remind myself every once and a while.

I mean, how many people donated to the NDN GoFundMe? A couple hundred? We're talking about a really small amount of people.

2) The quickness of a 4-8 college football season isn't helping the revolution. I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the "this isn't just about 4-8 season" reasoning but the hyperbole, anger, and fear-mongering also isn't helping the cause.

Recruiting is actually kind of impressive given our season, we're completely off the national radar now, and the perception of a "cratering program" just isn't matching reality.

3) The Ty situation really was so much worse. Not that there can't be some comparisons but he headed into his final year with 6 blowouts losses in his last 14 games. That combined with the recruiting situation really was incredibly alarming for a lot of people.

4) For the silent majority I think there's too many grizzled vets (who know the difficulties finding a great coach, understand the wheels are gonna move slowly, etc) and too many casual fans who both are in agreement that A) Kelly is coming back B) This is somewhere between kinda sucky and fine C) Kelly is unlikely to rebound in a big way D) The bar has to be set really high next year.

Anything stronger than this just isn't going to register with the average fan.

The funny thing is that I think we should be collectively coming to a consensus that Kelly is on an extremely hot seat and not to back off that--but when the mere suggestion of that is considered treason by our Mad Men, well, what's left to talk about?

I know I shouldn't be surprised but it's amazing to watch a lot of people mentally moving on from Kelly but not losing their marbles over it--and how quickly this happened--and it's like for some this hasn't happened at all.

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-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

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I'll register my silent majority

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Monday, December 12, 2016, 03:29 @ Eric M

I know three multi-generational season ticket holding families are giving up there tickets after this year. Their common feeling is "we're not paying huge amounts of money for this".

I think that's the part of "the campaign" that resounds loudest with me. We're willing to happily charge the most for tickets and gear, but are we really trying to be the best?

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I sympathize with that

by Eric M, Western New York, Monday, December 12, 2016, 06:48 @ HumanRobot

The ticket prices and all that is something that is a really worthwhile discussion.

I know a lot of people like talking about it and criticize the policies. Not that I disagree but I'll admit it doesn't really grab me that much. There's been almost 2 decades worth of crying wolf in terms of people giving up tickets and yet the stadium is almost always packed.

Maybe this is finally the breaking point. But we've been here before.

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-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

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Worth noting that the Ty counter protests

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 12:00 @ HumanRobot

Were, to a large degree, not about football.

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Edit: sorry, phone doing weird things

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:47 @ Eric M
edited by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:51

Would delete, but in the spirit of the thread i figured I would just post the same message twice but only try to have it make sense the second time


http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=179402;d=this

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I know we arent supposed to crosspost but

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:49 @ Mike (bart)

This might be my favorite NDNation post of all time

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=179402;d=this

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The administration already dismisses the ND internet

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:43 @ Eric M

This is just going to make this relationship worse.

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What relationship?

by Jim (OFD) @, Naptown, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 13:19 @ Jim (fisherj08)

And to be quite frank, the day any school administration caves to anonymous internet chat board criticism is the day they should shut their doors.

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Only by those who "care"

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:11 @ Mobster

or whatever they want to say they are ("concerned", "enlightened", "flatulent", "moderately neato')

It'll be mocked or ignored by essentially everyone else as it should be.

Exercise in futility but hey, I'm sure Schurz appreciates the ad revenue.

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A+ for the Carlin reference.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:13 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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.....headcheese

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:27 @ Savage

[ No text ]

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What's the endgame here?

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:03 @ Mobster

When Swarbrick doesn't get fired, what happens?

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I don't disagree that it won't change anything.

by tex29, Dallas, TX, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:26 @ Jim (fisherj08)
edited by tex29, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:34

But it seems no more futile than protesting the president elect by blocking traffic or marching on Washington. Likewise, I doubt kneeling during the national anthem or wearing a t-shirt during warmups is likely to alter police practices.

Nevertheless, I suspect the extent to which one gets bent out of shape about these ads, like the extent to which one gets bent out of shape about those other forms of protest, largely depends on the extent to which one sympathises with the message of the protest.

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I don't think the comparison is valid

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:35 @ tex29

because, well, nobody is *doing anything* as part of this protest.

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I'm not sure what you mean. These alumni are attempting to

by tex29, Dallas, TX, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:47 @ Jim (fisherj08)

make their voices heard. They want the administration, if not the general public, to know that they find the status quo unacceptable. They want the administration and public to know they hold Swarbrick accountable for the state of the program. Whether an ad (and particularly these ads) is the most effective means of affecting the underlying situation is debatable--just as it is with blocking traffic, wearing t-shirts, etc.

The bottom line is these folks are fed up with the state of the program, and they are seeking to change it however they can. And yes, I'm sure part of it is just venting frustration. Of course, the state of Notre Dame football isn't of the same import as issues of racial inequality or who is elected president. Still, the principle is the same. If they want to protest, let them protest. Is anyone getting hurt? If it makes them feel better, great. If they actually manage to change the situation, good for them.

In any event, it strikes me as nothing to get bent out of shape about. And to the extent you disagree, that's cool. But you should ask yourself whether you sympathise with the criticism of protesters with whom you agree as to underlying issues.

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You've hit on the big disconnect

by Greg, the 'Dena, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 15:14 @ tex29

They want the administration, if not the general public, to know that they find the status quo unacceptable. They want the administration and public to know they hold Swarbrick accountable for the state of the program...

The bottom line is these folks are fed up with the state of the program, and they are seeking to change it however they can.

Unlike the "Doug" voter who backed Trump, the ND alum/fan who is backing the effort to let ND know that he/she finds the status quo unacceptable has no franchise and no control over the situation. I think some think they do, but let's look at that -- the school is not run by them, is not accountable to them, and has moved on institutionally in ways that I think make their goals impossible. The men and women behind this movement want two things: for the student-athlete of today's ND to have an experience more similar to that had by those kids of my time than is currently had, and to win more games. I posit that the two things are inconsistent and impossible to achieve at the same time.

ND is a wholly different place academically than they remember (or I remember), and the average student athlete is not even close to walking through that door without sports. It takes way more than we know for those kids to stay up with their peers in the classroom. At the same time, nutrition, conditioning, and game prep are all more intense than we ever remember from our day at ND. So forget firing one or two people. Let's talk about what really needs to change if ND football is going to compete on an annual basis the way it did under Ara and under Lou from 88-93. And let's talk about whether we think ND would make those changes - or whether we really want ND to.

Because that's what this is really all about. Change in the world and at ND, and how it's affected ND football.

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#asshat

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But there's a counterexample.

by Ken Fowler, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 20:03 @ Greg

Stanford is a more difficult school to get into generally, imposes more difficult requirements for football recruits to get in (as evidenced by the recruits whom ND can offer but Stanford cannot), and has had schedules generally harder or as hard as Notre Dame's over the past 8 years.

If Stanford beats UNC in the Alamo Bowl, it will be Stanford's sixth year with 10 wins in the last seven.

If you want to argue it's impossible for ND to win without compromising its integrity, I'd ask that you show me where and how Stanford has compromised its integrity. Because Stanford is competing at a higher level than Notre Dame, despite the fact that Notre Dame entered this period of Stanford ascendance with tremendous advantages over Stanford related to recruiting, institutional commitment to football, and prestige.

It's possible that it's just impossible to win consistently at a place like ND anymore. But the case of Stanford suggests that it's more likely that an elite head coach can win consistently here.

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Thanks Ken (and Jay). Good thoughts.

by Greg, the 'Dena, Monday, December 12, 2016, 09:33 @ Ken Fowler

I was on a cell phone last night late and didn't want to respond with anything too brief or not respectful of the thought you've put into this.

Basically, I think that Stanford has conceded that it cannot compete for championships annually and so it instead focuses its recruiting and its entire style of play on maximizing the number of wins (and as Jay noted, the impressiveness of wins against the lower part of its schedule) so as to garner the most Director's Cup points from football that it can. Stanford is not out there trying to recruit the top players in the nation; it gets a few each year (and we could too) via affinity. But it then relies on its institutional support of the team to develop lower-rated recruits over time.

As we all know, and as was discussed in more depth below, the toughest thing about Stanford academically is getting in. They let kids drop classes with no penalty up until what, the day before finals? And (to echo the NCAA on having an honor code) that's not a special benefit for student-athletes, it's part of the university culture so the players are just getting the same deal as everyone else. Similarly, and unlike ND (but in line with a "change" many of us have thought is reasonable), their players don't have to graduate the undergrad schools in 4 years in order to get a 5th year.

So Stanford is basically setting up to have a big number of kids take five years to graduate, meaning they get an extra year of development out of those kids and always have older, well-developed senior leaders. Without getting into cracks at their strength program (though those are welcome if others want to make them), knowing that your linemen will stay five years really helps the strength guys mold them over time. Same with the average running back and linebacker.

So by essentially conceding that championships will have to be something lucked into (no pun intended, but yeah) via having a good collection of skill players who happen to have affinity for the school, Stanford has created a football culture built around maximizing the talent they can easily get and putting it into a system that is just different enough from the schools they face to make them more-than-competitive. They went manball instead of pass-happy gunslinging, but the theory is the same.

And so is the result. As Jay notes, they've not sniffed either the BCS title or the playoffs since the rise under Harbaugh and through Shaw's tenure. They're always top ten, and that's a good thing for them. But they've never been good enough to be what we at ND would want.

Now, if we are willing to make the concession they've made, I think we could also be a 10-win team. We'd basically be a much better BC or equivalent to Stanford. I don't know that being so would make the ND fans behind the newspaper ads happy -- no big star athletes getting recruited in, lots of low-hanging fruit; no huge wins over big teams, but lots of outpointing bad teams by a ton; no championships, but lots of bowl wins.

If we're OK with that -- and we're OK with letting the kids have 5 years to graduate, which I think we should be -- I see no reason we can't be Stanford. But Stanford isn't a title contender.

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#asshat

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It's not so 1 sided- You ignore Stanford's advantages

by JD in Portland ⌂, Portland OR, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 22:21 @ Ken Fowler

Weather
Proximity to some of the most fertile recruiting grounds in US.
Multi cultural community.
More prestigious degree.

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Except Notre Dame routinely has a better ranked

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Monday, December 12, 2016, 06:21 @ JD in Portland

recruiting class than Stanford. Those are all certainly advantages for Stanford, but the rankings show we recruit better.

One can argue that recruiting rankings mean jackshit (I partially agree and disagree) but I would imagine (I can look it up later) that we also lead in NFL draft picks in the last few years or at least are very close.

My opinion is that they are better coached than ND. The 5-2 record they have over BK evidences that.

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was there a Stanford team that would have beaten Bama?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 20:55 @ Ken Fowler

In any recent year?

Would Stanford last year have beaten Ohio State?

I feel like the Stanford comparison limps badly when compared to Saban/Meyer, and yet somehow they are supposedly doing something we haven't. The truth is they haven't been tested like we have.

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That's a clever way to frame the conversation

by Ken Fowler, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:29 @ Jay

But it's not really useful.

We all agree that 2012 was a successful season for ND. Would any Stanford team have beaten Alabama? I'm not sure. I think a few of them may have had a 20-30% chance of pulling off the upset, but I'm happy to answer "no" for these purposes because it doesn't really change the calculus.

Stanford has outperformed Notre Dame the past seven/eight years, and by a substantial clip. Stanford's worst season in this stretch was 8-5. ND has had a record better than that only three times. Stanford has had five seasons with at least 11 wins. ND has had one such season.

The point being this: ND's largest problem the past seven or eight years isn't that it lost to Alabama and Ohio State and Clemson. It's that it's lost a bunch of other games so that ND was far out of contention by the end of November. The 4-plus-loss seasons have been something Stanford has, for the most part, avoided.

Also, FEI and the rankings tell me Stanford has been tested like ND. Stanford's only 2010 loss was to No. 3 (final ranking) Oregon. In 2011, Stanford beat No. 6 USC, but lost to No. 3 Oklahoma State. In 2012, Stanford beat No. 2 Oregon and lost to No. 4 Notre Dame. In 2013, Stanford beat No. 9 Oregon and lost to No. 3 Michigan State. In 2014, Stanford lost to No. 2 Oregon and No. 10 UCLA. In 2015, Stanford beat No. 9 Iowa (and No. 11 ND).

What Stanford has done is "winning consistently." It's certainly a seven/eight-year level of success that I would sign up for, despite lack of a national championship. The fact that no Stanford team would have beaten Alabama in 2012? Well, that doesn't demonstrate that Stanford has been equivalent to ND; it doesn't indicate that Stanford hasn't been winning consistently; and it doesn't mean I would decline to sign up for Stanford's level of success.

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what's Stanford's "signature win" over the last five years?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:34 @ Ken Fowler

Do they have anything more than beating #2 Oregon in 2012?

To be clear, I'm not knocking the overall record Shaw has compiled, but sincerely questioning the idea that they are on par with any of the top performers of recent memory. We don't need to be Stanford's equal; we need to be much better than that to make the playoffs and win a national championship. Stanford hasn't done anything close to that.

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Jay, you're shifting my goalposts

by Ken Fowler, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:37 @ Jay

I said Stanford is winning consistently, doing much better than ND, and is doing that despite tougher academic requirements.

All of that is true. You seem to be hung up on the fact that Stanford isn't as good as Alabama or Ohio State. I'll grant you that. But that's not what I argued, not what I have any intention in arguing, and not relevant to the question of whether there's a gap between ND and Stanford.

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sorry

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Monday, December 12, 2016, 08:56 @ Ken Fowler

Didn't mean to shift goalposts! I did mean to shift the conversation slightly to shoot Stanford off its pedestal, a pedestal onto which many ND fans put them. You said something like Stanford is competing "at a higher level", and I would only argue they are competing at a higher level in terms of winning more consistently against the hoi polloi of their schedule, while largely failing against the very best teams they face. I think the eye test also proves out the point that these Stanford teams don't really stack up with the very best in college football.

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Posting from phone, so this is short

by Ken Fowler, Monday, December 12, 2016, 12:01 @ Jay

I'd certainly be thrilled with ND if it had a run like Stanford has had. When it comes to "can ND compete today," In pretty firm believing that ND's theoretical limit, while maintaining integrity, is that it can compete at least at as high a level as Stanford's ceiling (and, I believe, a higher level due to ND's unique advantages, even considering Stanford's advantages).

So when we get threads that question whether ND can really compete for titles anymore, my answer is firmly yes. Can ND be the juggernaut that Alabama is? I'm doubtful. But I hope we will continue to have people running the program who believe that a run of six 10-win seasons in seven years (and five 11-win seasons) is certainly plausible and attainable.

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follow up

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:04 @ Jay

2010 - crushed by the only ranked team they played in the regular season, Oregon

2011 - beat USC while they were #6, lost to Oregon again, lost to Oklahoma in the bowl game

2012 - beat Oregon, but lost to us, played an unranked Wisconsin in the bowl and beat them

2013 - probably Shaw's best season, beating some ranked P12 teams, but still losing to Utah, USC, and Michigan State in the bowl game

2014 - 8-5, lost to every ranked team they played except UCLA, also lost to unranked ND. Beat a shitty Maryland team in the bowl.

2015 - lost to only two ranked teams they played outside of us; beat up on a bad Iowa team in the bowl.

They just haven't played the top end teams that have defined the Kelly failures. I would like to see them play Florida State, Clemson on the road, at Oklahoma, vs Bama for the national championship, Ohio State in a big bowl.

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I disagree with what has "defined" ND's failures

by Ken Fowler, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:33 @ Jay

At most, what you post shows that Stanford's typical year since 2010 (5 out of the previous 6 seasons) is similar to ND's best year or two years. It doesn't account for the other five ND seasons (2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2016).

Simple question: Do you think ND has had a similar last seven years as compared to Stanford?

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I'm not trying to build up ND in this line of thinking

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:36 @ Ken Fowler

I'm saying Stanford isn't really the goal, either. When compared to the big boys of the sport they are overrated.

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Stanford is a cakewalk once you get in

by Spesh ⌂ @, Los Angeles, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 20:08 @ Ken Fowler

It doesn't compare.

How many times have Stanford players been kicked out or suspended for academics?

A close friend was the sports editor at the Stanford student paper. He would always tell me the it was impossible to flunk out there. Grade inflation was rampant.

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They reject your premise re: the changing times.

by San Pedro, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 18:38 @ Greg

And won't countenance your proposed discussion. That's the disconnect. Unlike most of the classmates I talk to, that group thinks the impediments relate to the coach and abandonment of traditions such as grass, no jumbotron, etc.

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I respectfully largely reject it. I don't care

by Buck Mulligan, Martello Tower, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 19:42 @ San Pedro
edited by Buck Mulligan, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 20:07

about switching to field turf, I favor offenses that work regardless of fullback quotient, and piped in music and smoke don't bother me one way or the other. I don't require or expect time to stand still.

However, ND was not easy for athletes when Ara and Lou coached, and I'd even say there was less flexibility in scheduling, summer school etc.

I understand the position but I don't buy it. It's a crutch that is permeating ND's culture, as crutches do. A crutch, I say.

I still like you guys.

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an elite coach alkne would make a huge difference

by San Pedro, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:04 @ Buck Mulligan

Still, i think we need to relax some academic requirements (both pre and post enrollment) to get over the top on the DL. Of course my theory has never been tested.

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A viable third-party position? Fullbacks and Field Turf?

by Jason93, Raining debris all over Europe, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 19:57 @ Buck Mulligan

I'm with him.

---
I think the children like it when I "get down" verbally.

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Best post on this subject that I've seen

by CK08, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 15:36 @ Greg

[ No text ]

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Absolutely perfect post. Well done.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 14:30 @ tex29

[ No text ]

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Furthermore,

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:53 @ tex29

if you are going to create a campaign, it is important to create reasonable, achievable goals for yourself. "FIRE KELLY" is, perhaps, obtainable. "FIRE SWARBRICK" likely not. So what is the point of the campaign?

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Excellent post.

by ndroman21, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:53 @ tex29

[ No text ]

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It's not really debatable

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:52 @ tex29

that direct, in person action is a much more effective means of protest/change than making an ad or posting on the Internet.

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Neither is likely to do anything at all. Do you seriously

by tex29, Dallas, TX, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:01 @ Jim (fisherj08)

believe that the people who blocked traffic protesting Trump were effective at changing *anything*? To say that an in-person protest would be more effective under the circumstances (even if I were to accept your premise) is like saying that a roll of gauze would be more effective than a band-aid at treating a decapitation.

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I think a boycott campaign would be more effective

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:05 @ tex29

The idea of an in-person protest over a football program would be a bad idea for any number of reasons. An effort to depress ticket and merchandise sales would be much more on target.

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The University wouldn't give a fuck.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 14:42 @ Jay
edited by Savage, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 14:48

(To be fair, they clearly don't care about the ads anyway, but I'm just trying to push back against the notion that the message would be better received in another way or from some other assortment of folks. There is no medium or tack that they will give a fuck about the rank and file alumni's concerns ... the only people who matter are, slightly the CSC provincials, and largely the people who they think might have a chance to give 8-figure gifts. That's it, realistically.)

There is effectively no way to hit them in the pocket book. Even 10,000 alumni (almost certainly overstating those who care about this by an order of magnitude) who give $1,000 per year (5x the minimal giving amount) barely cracks what they're looking for from big donors.

Maybe they'd notice if the stadium looked empty, but they probably wouldn't really care. They don't feel shame about a failed (sorry, it has been adjudicated to be a B- ... woo grade inflation!) on-field product. They don't feel shame about the diminishing hold that traditional cultural aspects play in campus life.

Nothing moves the needle except money and, to a lesser extent, bad publicity. A boycott is a combination of both, but an ineffective one on the monetary front, and much harder to organize than ads and word-of-mouth campaigns on the latter.

A boycott, just like the ads, will be pointless in the end -- because the institution doesn't care about excellence, or alumni, just money. But just because something is futile doesn't mean it isn't justified or "right".

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Sav, serious question

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Monday, December 12, 2016, 07:46 @ Savage

Why do you still follow this all closely if you feel the university is so far gone? Is it a belief that there's a path to salvaging it?

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I don't think it would work.

by Pat (Moco), Slave Den, Brian Cook's Basement, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:57 @ Jay

I don't think that there are enough fans that are willing to withhold money from ND to make it worthwhile, at least from a football-only perspective.

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That is likely true

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 18:15 @ Pat (Moco)

I'd love to see some data on the effectiveness of boycotts for national brands. I can't imagine that a boycott would have any effect at all on ND. Going 4-8 will have already depressed demand several orders of magnitude more than an additional boycott.

---
At night, the ice weasels come.

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I agree. But that doesn't mean other forms of protest are

by tex29, Dallas, TX, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:23 @ Jay

not worthwhile. Moreover, it doesn't mean other forms of protest should be derided.

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Worth noting something like todays ad

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:17 @ Jay

Would be a natural first/priming step for something like a boycott campaign

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Yes, I do.

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:04 @ tex29

It shows elected representatives that there is a significant resistance to Trump's policies.

To use a real world example, Republicans in Congress were emboldened because Tea Party types took to the streets to show their disapproval with Barack Obama. It wasn't message board posts or ads in the newspaper or Twitter posts.

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Significant resistance?

by tex29, Dallas, TX, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:21 @ Jim (fisherj08)

You don't think that's obvious? You think the traffic protest is what Informed everyone that a significant part of the population is not a fan of the Donald?

The protests accomplished basically nothing, other than making the protesters feel better about "making their voices heard." Fair enough. In any event, whether they could be more effective doing something else is hardly worth deriding them.

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Assuming he doesn't get fired I think

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:39 @ Jim (fisherj08)

The end of the day benefits for the group are

1. Got a primal scream out and it feels kind of good

2. Established internal clout/pecking order over in the NDN community; people getting a chance to strut their stuff, out their money where their mouths are, etc.

3. Laying a marker for if/when the next big controversy pops up. Kind of like how the 47 percent video was made more powerful by the Occupy Wall Street 1 percent frame

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A bloodless coup...nothing but smotherings.

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:29 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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They wanna find out if Swarbrick weighs as much as a duck

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:30 @ Mobster

[ No text ]

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Funny!

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:33 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Barstool and Deadspin blog posts on it

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:21 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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it'll be interesting to see

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:02 @ Mobster

if this gets picked up nationally like the first one was. Since the short attention span internet sports media has already done this story once, you wonder if they'll do it again, or ignore it as more of the same.

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Pretty well done

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:52 @ Mobster

[ No text ]

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Why do you think that?

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:07 @ Mike (bart)

[ No text ]

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multiple hashtags

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:17 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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It pretty much responds to all the criticisms of the first a

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:17 @ Jim (fisherj08)

It is cleanly and well designed. It has a symbolic construct and composition that is intuitive and makes sense. There is a clear ask/prompt for readers. It is clear who is placing the advertisement.

I think it is a good ad. It still isn't going to get me to care about if Swarbrick stays or goes, but it does not repel me like the previous ad did.

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I agree.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:32 @ Mike (bart)

I'm not a marketing person, but this one drew my attention all the way to the bottom.

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They bury their message in the bottom right of the ad

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:21 @ Mike (bart)

in a hashtag.

It's poorly designed at best and obviously designed by someone with limited marketing sense.

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Putting the ask right at the end seems pretty normal

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:27 @ NDTerp

As far as design,there are too many fonts , but that aside I think there is a cleanlook, and an easy to follow visual hierarchy that brings you to the ask at the end.

Again, I am just a one man focus group here. I thought the first ad was horrific, and given the pixels I spilled on that it seems fair to acknowledge how much better this one seems to me.

It also seems like the @fightforexcellence Twitter account is off to a competent start, but time will tell if that keeps up.

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Not realizing that they couldn't get "fightforexcellence"

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:29 @ Mike (bart)

and instead getting "fightforexcelle" was, to say the least, an inauspicious start.

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Fight4excellence would work, no? Seems prefetable

by JRT, Island of Misfit Toys, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:08 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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Ha, I didnt even notice that. That's hilarious

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:41 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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It makes it look half-assed

by Pat (Moco), Slave Den, Brian Cook's Basement, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:52 @ Mike (bart)

Just like the ads

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do you have a link to something?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:40 @ Mobster

[ No text ]

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Within.

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:45 @ Jay

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=179331;d=this

https://twitter.com/fightforexcelle

The new ad is really everything the first one was not. 1) it doesn't look like it was created by a HS freshman 2) It has a somewhat clever hook 3) it has a call to action 4) it has options for media to follow up (email, twitter) 4) it's signed

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How about we embed the ad instead of giving them pageclicks

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:16 @ Mobster

[ No text ]

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Here you go

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:43 @ Jay
edited by Bill, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:48

This one is much more well done, although I think I like the earlier B/W drafts I saw (posted by Sampson in the 4HL) better.

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Still too opaque in intention.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:17 @ Bill

Why save saying what you really want for silly social media hashtags at the bottom of a print advertisement?

The message is way too muddled with abstract cultural ideas like "tradition." If you believe Brian Kelly should be fired for the lousy football and the NCAA probation, and Jack Swarbrick should be fired for supervising all that and seemingly refusing to change course, then say so. The other stuff is too subjective.

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This is a no-win

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:37 @ PMan

If one poses it as "We went 4-8. Fire Kelly", then the response is "what, it was only one bad year of football?" and "you're really going to revolt at your alma mater over a sportsball team?"

But if you pose it as "Swarbrick and Kelly are failing to live up to the traditional expectations at ND on the field and are doing irreparable harm to the traditions, culture, etc. of the program", then it invites responses like yours that dismiss the second part: outsiders who don't know or care about the traditions and culture perceive it as ancillary, and insiders claim it's a dogwhistle for "fire the purple-faced shanty Irish mick who we hate so"

With neither one coming out clean, I can only presume that the ads say what they mean -- that the traditional/cultural/accountability issues are truly a sore spot, not just a rending of grievances solely because of the 4-8 record. That there has been much discontent through previous seasons (certainly last year, but even including during the NCG run), to the point that it's a trope that they're never satisfied and always angry, I think gives some support to this interpretation/presumption. I know that many will disagree, and that's fine.

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No, its only about the 4-8

by KelleyCook @, quite pleased with Nov 8th, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 15:29 @ Savage

And everyone in the entire college football world knows this.

Anyone involved with either of these ads should be ashamed of themselves.

---
providing less clarification since 1991

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Thanks for telling me what I think and what I care about.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 15:46 @ KelleyCook

[ No text ]

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You took this as a personal attack?

by KelleyCook @, quite pleased with Nov 8th, Monday, December 12, 2016, 09:31 @ Savage
edited by KelleyCook, Monday, December 12, 2016, 09:37

The simple fact is that if (wishes could be fishes...) those 8 close games all of which we were the more talented team this year had gone 7-1 instead of 1-7 we would be in a decent bowl game -- possibly a NY6 game (where we would have been overmatched).

Even if we had gone 4-4 in them, this ad would not have been coming out.

It came out because we ended up 4-8. It really is an unarguable point.

Also unarguable is the fact that the rest of college football is laughing at the creators of both of the ads. They are objectively an F and D+ in both layouts, effectiveness and cleverness.

Though the entire idea of an airing of grievances ad was dumb to begin with -- I couldn't disagree with my snickering UofMich friends that a middle schooler could have easily come up with better ads.

---
providing less clarification since 1991

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I was just talking about the visuals of the ad.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:55 @ Savage

The trajectory of the Four Horsemen allegory ends with the "death" of "traditions." A better ad, in my opinion, would be more upfront about the desired end game, which is Kelly and Swarbrick no longer employed by Notre Dame.

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What "football traditions" are they talking about?

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:01 @ Bill

[ No text ]

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Winning

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:13 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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That's not a tradition

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:18 @ Mobster

That's part of the rules of the game. That's why they got rid of ties.

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Tongue was in cheek. Things are tense here.

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:25 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Mine was too.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:26 @ Mobster

(see by SYR post).

I was doing my best WAIT THATS NOT CORRECT literal read of your post. Hard to translate that across a series of tubes.

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What we really need to do to embrace tradition

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:22 @ NDTerp

is have another World War then get a bunch of 25 year old veterans to play for our team.

Donald Trump is probably a good start, tbh.

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Kick all the women back out.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:27 @ Jim (fisherj08)

We won more football games when we weren't co-ed.

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SYRs in the dorms

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:12 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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Fullbacks

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:06 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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And snaps under center.

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:08 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

[ No text ]

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Field turf, jumbotron, Crossroads, team mass, jock music

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:04 @ Jim (fisherj08)

You know, the usual Festivus grievances.

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Just a touch dramatic

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:47 @ Bill

[ No text ]

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Taunting?

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:39 @ Mobster

I'm not sure what the responsible group expected Swarbrick's response to be, but I find the notion that he's been 'taunting' them by lightly brushing off the advertising events to be overly sensitive and quite silly.

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There was just no upside to address it....

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:48 @ Bill

and if you do address it, you do so at least somewhat seriously. What is the upside of treating it any other way?

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His reaction was just fine.

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:52 @ Mobster

That group's hyper-sensitivity to every perceived slight is childish and doesn't further their cause.

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Agree to disagree I suppose...

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:59 @ Bill

in this case, there is almost no upside to saying anything other than poking a group of already angry alumni in the eye.

I'm sure the recruits really cared about the joke. In this case, he ignored the value of an unexpressed thought IMO.

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it was the perfect thing to say in that setting

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:04 @ Mobster

Also, we've got a whole thread about it down below, so no need to recycle the entire dialogue here too.

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As I said, agree to disagree

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:14 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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So you don't think any of the players have talked about

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:02 @ Mobster

the ad? I'm guessing its been a topic of conversation. It's an elephant in the room. He acknowledged it and brushed it off. I don't think he's going to get fired over this (nor do I think he should be) and he shouldn't act like he might be.

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I think internally it does

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:57 @ Bill

And that's a valid part of the equation. How a group defines reasonableness for itself matters if you're going to engage that group. Now, there's also the option not to engage or to marginalize, but don't be shocked when the marginalized group doesn't like it

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Swarbrick addressed that group

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:58 @ Mike (bart)

with the same amount of respect that the group shows him.

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I agree

by Mike (bart), Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:01 @ Jim (fisherj08)

And that's Swarbrick's choice, as he is the one with the power in this situation.

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As I said below. You do when addressing a Pro ND crowd.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:51 @ Mobster

That is, no matter the season, celebrating the team and future of the team. That is when you do it. Short. Sweet. Funny. Move on. That is what Swarbrick did and it was perfect for the occasion.

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Pete Sampson is a douche of the highest order

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:39 @ Mobster
edited by Savage, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:44

He's really hammering on the anonymous aspect (not really sure why he cares so much, perhaps he's just carrying Nolan's water, since Nolan blessedly has gained a modicum of Twitter self-control on the subject), despite that (a) this one now has a name attached, (b) plenty of people at the source have identified themselves and continue to be willing to do so.

It's convenient for him, because there's certainly not enough room for every ad to have a complete list of donor rolls -- and almost certainly if an ad that just said "We the undersigned want Kelly and Swarbrick fired" with all their names and class years and seat numbers and SSNs and II passwords and whatever else he would find sufficiently non-anonymous, he'd then probably change the argument to say "they all signed it, but didn't say what they wanted/why/provide enough footnotes".

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Calling Pete Sampson

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 10:56 @ Savage

a "douche"; and, God forgive me, I ventured over to Rock's House, calling fellow alumni Prister and KA "real scum" because they disagree with your goals and/or your methods is really productive.

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Pretty sure I didn't do either of the latter?

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 14:46 @ PMan

[ No text ]

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is part of the movement also

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:53 @ Savage

to go after everybody who thinks it's a lousy idea?

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Absolutely it is.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:12 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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No

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:04 @ Jay

I have no problem with people disagreeing with the merits of Kelly's and Swarbrick's continued employment. I don't even have a problem with people saying "this is pointless". I do have a problem with Sampson's intellectual dishonesty and grasping at complete irrelevancies. To the first ad, he dismissed it as anonymous griping; now the second one is signed, and he dismisses it as practically anonymous and thus still insufficient; I think my hypothetical isn't too far off the mark regarding his moving the goalposts.

(Yeah, I exaggerated about SSNs, but Sampson himself threw out the insistence that it be signed with names, classyears, and seat numbers.)

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I saw his seat number comment the other day

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:07 @ Savage

I think what he meant was that it would be a much more powerful statement if it was accompanied by a threat to withhold donations, and here are our season ticket details to prove it. I took it as a suggestion to make it stronger, not shooting down the whole intent of the thing.

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That was exactly the point he was trying to make

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 11:43 @ Jay

If you're really this committed to the cause, post your seat numbers and make it clear you won't be renewing those tickets until your cause carries the day.

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I think that is a bit of the problem.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:13 @ Jay

That group does not have seats, do not make and never have made significant donations. They are smart enough to realize that would undermine their position. Sad thing is there are valid points they make, but the way it is always presented reminds me of Cartman from Southpark.

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His main point hasn't been that it's a lousy idea

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:57 @ Jay

It's that it was anonymous. I can understand people thinking it's a lousy idea, but not really convinced on the anonymity argument.

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True, but having that anonymity is perfect cover.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:16 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

Yes, everybody knows who it is, but if it really backfires they can always point to the fact that in actuality they never put their "John Hancock" on it. Who knows maybe Pete makes that happen and then it's really game on.

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Exactly.

by Savage, Around Ye Olde Colonial College, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:12 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

[ No text ]

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it's about more than Pete

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:09 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

How are dissenters on NDN, or other sites, being treated? No need to answer; that's rhetorical.

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how else will people know you Really Care?

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:54 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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Yes.

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:54 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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I don't think saying "this ad campaign is not a good idea"

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:46 @ Savage

is equivalent with being a "douche"

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Agree but he is asking for those involved to share...

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:50 @ Jim (fisherj08)

their names, class years, seat numbers, etc. You know because every political ad we just saw this year had every single person that contributed to candidate listed at the end of it.

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But that informaiton is publicly available for political ads

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:51 @ Mobster

The information isn't posted in the ad itself

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:54 @ Jim (fisherj08)

the attribution in the ad is fine for really everyone but Pete.

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Also, this isn't politics!

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:21 @ Mobster

It's sports!

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Why do you care what Pete Sampson has to say?

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:58 @ Mobster

Do you think the BOT and administration see him as some kind of arbiter of truth? Pete's had his own criticisms of Kelly and ND's football record over the last couple of years. I'm not sure why he needs to be put on an enemies list.

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I'm not keeping an enemies list or whatever...

by Mobster, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:05 @ Bill

I think his point here is stupid. That's it.

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Reading between the lines,

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:59 @ Bill

I would guess the Irish Illustrated crew is sympathetic to the cause of the people who are running this campaign.

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Prister and Sampson have both said a coaching change

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 09:03 @ Jim (fisherj08)

would be appropriate. They're on the group's side.

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But it's still publicly available

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:56 @ Mobster

the people who came up with this ad should be publicly accountable for their actions.

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I think the SBT ad is fine in terms of attributions.

by Bill, Southern California, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:40 @ Savage

They should have done so in the first place, and none of that would have been an issue going forward.

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The first one she did was given the go ahead with no check.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:45 @ Bill

I suspect this time the boys wanted something, well, a little more modern.

Facts are the facts, but to think Swarbrick is taunting them when he is addressing a Pro ND crowd is ridiculous and a bit dim.

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He was in front of the football team and recruits

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:49 @ River

Of course he's going to dismiss it in that setting.

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And well he should.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:53 @ Jim (fisherj08)

Heck, I have friends that somewhat agree with the ad campaign and agree that Swarbrick did the right thing.

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It's better. It's like someone read this board for

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 08:30 @ Mobster

Suggestions.

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