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that ad ran in the Observer today

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:38

What am I missing?

by Mark, Cloud City, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:30 @ Jay
edited by Mark, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:54

I dont see any value in running this type of ad.

1. Fans dont have ownership. Who cares if your team loses. There are lots of fans all over the world who's teams aren't winners. Notre Dame doesn't owe you squat. Grow up already.

2. This type of ad just makes for bad jokes from the fans of your competitors. By running this kind of ad, you've brought ridicule to your beloved team. How does that provide any value? Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. This ad is more a part of the problem, than the solution.

3. This type of ad just causes more problems for the existing team members. Do you think they enjoy trying to get a college degree and having a tough season? Can you imagine how they feel after working all week long, having a shitty game performance, only to come back to ND and to try to focus and face exams?

4. This type of ad just causes more problems for the existing coaching staff. They're out trying to make the team better. They're recruiting, trying to figure/negotiate staff changes etc. Do you think this makes them more successful? Do think this helps them recruit top notch talent to ND? Does this help them bring in new coaches? Why on earth would new coaches/top recruits want to come to a place that is bathed in this kind of stupidity?

5. This does not help ND make a smooth transition in to a more successful solution.

6. This is people's lives we're talking about. Yes, its part of the job, but nonetheless, these people that are trying to do a good job will have nutjobs prank calling them in the middle of the night and leaving hate voicemail and even death threats (yes, ND fans definitely do this kind of shit). Their children will have a crappy time at school because other stupid children will mimic this kind of lame tactic.


Is there some sort of value to this that I'm am missing? I've been trying to think of something positive that can come from this, but I just dont see it.

If you really think Jack Swarbrick is the problem, then you have to re-evaluate who put him in that position and quite frankly, I dont think Fr Jenkins should have to waste his time dealing with a bunch of prissy fans that have their panties in a twist.

---
"After more than a decade of sub-par red zone TD efficiency... wait ... what? ... Hold on!"

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the Rakes charity drive got equal time in the Indy Star

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:25 @ Jay

The Victors are having fun with it.

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:37 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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Sports Illustrated picked it up

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:45 @ Jay

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oh, it'll make all the rounds

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:46 @ Jim (fisherj08)

[ No text ]

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You are correct it is everywhere.

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 16:31 @ Jay
edited by Grantland, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 16:42

BTW:

This doesn't really fit here but I sort of want it hidden.

I posted that gofundme link yesterday not necessarily knowing it was an NDN invention. I guess I could have figured it out but I did not think about it. It came from dorm mates who, I guess are prolly on NDN. Though the ad did generate a little discussion in our email chain of about 50 people.

I rarely read NDN but I went over there today out of curiosity and references from here.

My real question:

Are we one of the happyhapppyfun boards? And why won't my smiley face work?

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As to your last sentence

by Pat, Right behind you, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:41 @ Grantland

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there is a small group, like maybe 5 people

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:06 @ Grantland

at NDNation who read this board religiously, pick out posts here to ridicule, and then comment about them, almost daily, on NDNation (without linking, and usually obliquely). The rest of the board over there probably doesn't understand what they're posting about. I don't read over there as much as I used to, so I usually get something emailed to me by people who are still active on both boards who clue me in.

This board, as you know, is open to read to anybody, and over the years we've developed a huge lurker readership. TPG is going to eclipse three and a half million page views for 2016 (which is actually down from five million last year, and six and a half million in 2014). This is all with just a couple of hundred registered handles, and only about forty active posters on any given day. Because this board is open to read to anyone, extraneous discussion is going to happen from time to time. I see posts here become topics on twitter, for example, or on other ND message boards all the time. That's to be expected.

But the obsessed few on NDNation, who not only lurk but also feel compelled to take regular pot shots, are behaving differently. I don't understand their motivation. It seems it is solely to ridicule. I find it pathetic, but not worth getting too riled up about. Most of them I know, too, which makes it weird.

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Gotcha

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 06:38 @ Jay

I have always known there was some tension but it has always been pretty obvious that we, as in this Board, should be above it.

I was a bit surprised about the open discussion re: the ad.

Frankly, when I found out the funding thing was done by NDNation, I was going to get a polite reminder.

But whatever thanks for keeping it civil around here.

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I think the discussion in this case is fine

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 07:15 @ Grantland
edited by Jay, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 07:31

After all, it's a national story about Notre Dame. We shouldn't pretend to ignore it. And I haven't seen any bashing of specific individuals over there. The commentary has been aimed at the campaign.

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Still? How silly.

by Slainte Joe, Raleigh, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 21:16 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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It goes both ways

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 21:05 @ Jay

Unfortunately, some on NDNation and some on TPG are obsessed with each other. The snark level is out of control.

Perhaps both sides can dial it down.

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revised response

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 07:16 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

Email me if you want to discuss this further, but I'm not talking about garden variety snark in this case.

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False equivalence.

by Slainte Joe, Raleigh, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 21:17 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

There is much less NDN chatter here now, thank goodness.

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When the football word "contain" became a source of angst

by Buck Mulligan, Martello Tower, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 18:42 @ Jay

among experts who had never strapped on the pads, I knew it was past time to move on.

Coach Fleck will unify all factions, though.

#WhatWillYouRowFor?

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Haugh, Hamilton, etc.... all licking their chops.

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:01 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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What is most disappointing...

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:57 @ Bill

...are the people that post here, in one type of voice/tone, and then go and post elsewhere, with a completely different one, or take shots back across the sea.

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Revelation 3:16

by MTIrish, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:59 @ Joe

[ No text ]

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Get the bucket ready...

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:06 @ MTIrish

[image]

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I don't put Kevin in that category

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:09 @ Joe

He's good people.

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oh come on, kevin's an asshole

by JN @, Seattle, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:12 @ Jay

he's a good people and i have no idea what anyone's talking about, but the reason kevin and i liked each other so much when we worked together is assholes tend to get along with assholes.

oh and there's strength in numbers when you're deep in enemy territory like we were

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I like him quite a bit.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:40 @ Jay

It was intended as a gentle chide based on some of what I've read today. Didn't mean it as anything more than that.

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Ditto.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:29 @ Jay

Both Kevins, in fact, are good people. One didn't even kill me when offered the opportunity.

Speaking of, how is that there can be multiple handles with the same name?

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there's only one Kevin here that I know of

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:30 @ Domer99

[ No text ]

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There was another

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:33 @ Jay

I am not sure if he retired his handle or bowed out. But there have been 2 different ones, the commonality is that both were '99 grads. One from Carroll, the other from Dillon. The latter participating in one of the Backroom outings (Foster's suck?).

But both good dudes.

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HTown!

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:55 @ Domer99

He's a superlurker but not a poster.

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95% sure he penned this....

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:37 @ Jay

nope, that's our Kev

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:12 @ Domer99

[ No text ]

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Man, its depressing to read the replies to that post

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:47 @ Domer99

[ No text ]

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I think there were threads like that down the stretch

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:14 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

last year too. Remember when we were 9-1 with only a hair's breadth loss to #2 Clemson, on the road, at night, in a monsoon?

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Sure

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:39 @ Jay

And I imagine I penned a few that talked about how we were set up for a gaggle of double-digit win seasons, given the QB and skill position depth charts, and the nice recruiting momentum we were building.

Funny thing is, all that might still be true.

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Absolutely agree

by Pat, Right behind you, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 14:22 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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my ad

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:31 @ Jay
edited by Jay, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:36

It Is Time to Move On From Brian Kelly

Notre Dame Football has achieved some success under the leadership of Brian Kelly, with an appearance in the national championship game following the 2012 season.

Unfortunately, since that peak, the trajectory of the program has been downward, spiraling into a season that ranks among the worst in program history.

After seven years under Coach Kelly's stewardship, a 4-8 season record -- against the easiest schedule in years -- is simply unacceptable.

We believe a fresh start, with a new coach, is required to reinvigorate Notre Dame football, and put it back onto the path to success. Please join us in urging our administration to make this change as soon as possible.

FOR A FRESH START -- FIRE KELLY NOW.

paid for by (organization name with contact info)

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Hmm.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:28 @ Jay

Can we add some colored boxes? And maybe a multitude of fonts?

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Mine: Go Irish! Beat Dawgs!

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:08 @ Jay

Yours is much too cerebral.

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Where do I sign?

by Bryan (IrishCavan), Howth Castle and Environs, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:06 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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Pretty good

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:03 @ Jay

I now want to fire Kelly

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Works for me. With the added benefit of it looking like

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:40 @ Jay

it was written by a mature adult.

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I haven't added the blinking lights and pom salutes yet

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:42 @ Bill

[ No text ]

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If ChestertonLep could design a better ad than you...

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:23 @ Jay

[ No text ]

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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Porn salutes? In a student newspaper??

by Jack @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:44 @ Jay

Oh! Never mind.

[image]

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Fair. Well put-together. Concise. Clear.

by Greg, the 'Dena, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:35 @ Jay

[ No text ]

---
#asshat

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Do the students even read the 'Print Edition'?

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:29 @ Jay

Is it still something that is distributed in the dining halls and elsewhere where the student body is picking up copies? I'd tend to believe they're getting it distributed to their mobile devices or read it online.

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Last time I was on campus (VT game), the print copies

by CK08, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:31 @ Bill

were all in their usual places, and there was nothing to indicate that students were ignoring them.

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Rumor is that this ad is airing tomorrow

by PootND ⌂ @, Jersey City, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:51 @ Jay

[image]

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"arrests"

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:59 @ PootND

[ No text ]

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Did you know it's illegal to frolic nude in Wrigleyville?

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:35 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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Out of curiosity...

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:57 @ PootND

And this is a serious (if Socratic) question: How long did it take you to make that?

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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~45 minutes

by PootND ⌂ @, Jersey City, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:59 @ Brendan

while I was procrastinating from some boring but important work I had to do.

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That's about 900% longer than I would've expected

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:02 @ PootND
edited by Brendan, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:28

Disappointingly long when compared to the mere 300% above budgeted time that such ads created by Ritter have taken to produce over the last four years, while also falling 40% short of the per-ad word count he has generated over the last two years.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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Amazing.

by PAK, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:53 @ PootND

[ No text ]

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Should have put it in Viewpoint, signed by 4 Lewis freshmen

by irishoutsider @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:38 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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[fire emoji]

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:52 @ irishoutsider

[ No text ]

---
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

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Any trademark Lawyers in here?

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:24 @ Jay

the inclusion of that is reprehensible

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:42 @ Grantland

The aesthetic criticisms of the ad are one thing, fine. The layout sucks, big deal.

But drawing an equivalence between the efforts in the "Fighting For" campaign and winning some lousy football games is simply galling. Let's recap what the campaign is about:

* promoting global health

* space exploration

* ethical use of technology

* curing cancer

* engineering projects in the third world

* equal education opportunities

* fighting tuberculosis

* rebuilding after hurricanes

* improving pediatric care

* mediating international conflicts

* building interreligious dialogue

* working on treatments for autism

* promoting literacy

* not losing a football game to Navy

https://www.nd.edu/fighting-for/

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Not a trademark lawyer, but I'm guessing fair use.

by MattG, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:35 @ Grantland

[ No text ]

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FU is, in my experience, more limited than one would

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:36 @ MattG

expect (or at least narrower than I expected).

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Whether or not it is fair use, "FU" is appropriate for this

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:12 @ BillyGoat

[ No text ]

---
At night, the ice weasels come.

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Wait. That was the final design?

by MattG, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:20 @ Jay

There's way, WAY too much on the page.

It looks like 25 people collaboratively used Powerpoint to try to recreate a GeoCities website, then agreed that everyone's contributions were worthy of inclusion.

But in a more concrete sense:

1) They do a terrible job hiding the fact that they're cherry-picking data.

It makes you look silly to use "in 9 seasons" and "over the last 4 seasons" as bullet points in the same list.

There's no explanation for the shifting timeframe, so even a casual reader assumes they're trying to gild the lily.

Throw in the "over last 3 seasons" in the Ty/Kelly bit, and the 7 season timeframe "2010-2016" in the ND/Stanford part.... and what may be the first use in history of the "Wins Over Top 12 Teams" stat - and your credibility is just immediately shot.

Instead of taking your argument at face value, readers just immediately go "what happened to Stanford 7 years ago?" Why three years of Kelly? "Did we lose to a bunch of teams ranked #12, or beat a #13, or what?"

2) It's a PowerPoint eyechart. The ad needs 50% less text.

Using an off-the-shelf font looks amateurish, and while you get points for using a single font, you used at least 7 different sizes and bold/italic variations. That has the same effect as mixing Comic Sans and Times New Roman.

The number matrices comparing Kelly and Ty, and ND and Stanford, should have been be shown with infographics. Even regular old MS Office bar graphs would be a massive improvement.

Did they clear the use of those photographs? Or were they taken/owned by someone involved with the ad? If you're going to go purchase & use photos in a print ad, make them a focal point!

3) How is "failed to uphold standards" a category of failure unto itself?

All possible failures are either on-field, or off-field. And we used those. The "failure to uphold standards" stuff they cite is all "on-field".

It's piling on, muddling the message, and it's ALSO a cherry-picked timeframe. There's no reasonable rationale for comparing Kelly's last 3 seasons against all 100 years of ND football.

Make the entire point of the ad "failing on-field, failing off-field." It's easy to grasp.

Then cut everything else. "Denial of Accountability" and "Ridiculed in National Media" are bullet points that just INVITE disagreement.

4) The "result" column comparing Willingham and Kelly fired/extended is objectively false.

Kelly wasn't extended AFTER the cited 3-year run. He was extended in January 2016. At the time of the extension, his last three seasons had a .692 win percentage. And if I can cherry-pick for a moment, his last FOUR seasons were at .750!
*****

Here's the thing. I agree that Kelly should be gone, soon. But reading this ad, my knee-jerk reaction is "I don't want to be on the side of these people".

If you don't think Kelly is good enough, post the data. MANY people will agree! Most people, probably!

But if you use a game of 3-card monte to try to convince people that he's worse than he is, those people will reflexively disagree with you.

Finally, the use of quotes at the end, with no context or attribution, is WAY too "inside baseball". To 99% of your readers, it looks like an amateurish punctuation mistake.

[image]

And you don't go for THREE zingers at the end. You go for ONE.

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That was my gut reaction, too.

by Mike (Max) @, Orlando, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:21 @ MattG

What a crappily designed ad. I wonder what the people who put it together are studying.

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Your knee-jerk reaction is exactly on point

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:48 @ MattG

And it's precisely what drives the polarity. If this fodder wasn't so whack-job tea-party reactionary, I'd be more receptive to listening.

Instead it creates the most unlikely bedfellows, where a mediocre choice like Kelly sounds more than palatable if not appetizing. It's this kind of thoughtless reactionary behavior that produces a string of unsuccessful hires like Davie, Willingham, and Weis.

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further on cherrypicking, context, etc

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:32 @ MattG

The ad attributes a quote to Swarbrick that says, "It's harder to win now than in 1988."

What he really said, in response to a question from Nolan asking if it was harder to win now than in 1988:

I think undoubtedly it is harder. Now, people from that era may have a different view. But there are things that make it harder. But it doesn’t make any difference. It’s harder to win basketball games than it was back then. It’s harder to do a number of things. We don’t treat any of that as an excuse or a reason to have different goals. I sort of embrace that. Some of those things that you might view as obstacles are ultimately what we have to offer young people. It is the eliteness of the institution and the quality of the education. You can’t say it’s an obstacle and then talk about how great it is because it helps you. That’s the way it is. I wouldn’t trade anything for the circumstance we now compete in. I think it’s exactly what it should be. We have to do a better job with it, that’s all. 

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That's pretty infuriating

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:42 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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it's also used to trigger a comparison between

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:36 @ Jay

two programs from 2010-2016.

I mean, I understand "It's not 1988 anymore" as a bugaboo, but the only reason to paraphrase Swarbrick and include that quote in the ad is as a high-five line in an argument with fellow fans. The ad would become about 20% more effective if they'd just taken that sentence and block of text out

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Exactly. Agreed all around.

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:28 @ MattG

[ No text ]

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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They spent tens of minutes on the design, Matt.

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:21 @ MattG

[ No text ]

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Did no one have the MS Office version with Publisher?

by MattG, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:27 @ Jim (fisherj08)

I'm not saying anyone had to hire a professional.

I'm saying that my boss wouldn't let me use a slide that looked like that in a PPT for an internal presentation to my own team.

Less would have been SO much more.

And the stuff that remained after editing should have been presented more clearly and more honestly.

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We should demand better

by Eric M, Western New York, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:09 @ Jay

From a group protesting in such a way. Oh, the irony.

That's a 1-11 advertisement from a 2-10 message board protesting a 4-8 season.

---
-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

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don't disagree

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:44 @ Eric M

But I think the administration kind of owns this one, given their lack of communication with the fans.

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That wasn't in the ad

by Eric M, Western New York, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:45 @ HumanRobot

This whole "communicating with the fans" idea is pretty silly. If there was a presser Jack wouldn't say much, the questions wouldn't be all that intriguing, and we'd learn next to nothing. That's how things work at any other school.

So what do we want, really?

Seems like the more someone wants him to speak the more they loath him, and the reasoning is little more than another opportunity to crush him, and bonus time, the reporters too.

---
-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

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I don't think that's exactly right either

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:53 @ HumanRobot

As said elsewhere, I don't think it's a lack of communication with fans, I think it's that many fans don't like the substance, tone, and delivery of the communication.

And not sure if you've heard of this but Notre Dame has created outreach with some of its fans. I know of at least one person, who I'd easily categorize in the "disenfranchised by Brian Kelly" group (DRINK!), who has participated in this council.

http://www.ndinsider.com/irishstew/notre-dame-athletics-to-create-fan-council/article_7...

So it's not exactly a self-fulfilling echo chamber.

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that might all be true

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:59 @ Domer99

ND would go a long way with a live presser with Jack to address probation, the season, etc.

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Do you think the questions would be all that different?

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:02 @ HumanRobot

I bet even the most antagonistic of fans who might type in highly aggressive questions on the Internet, would find some sense of decorum and professionalism at a formal press conference and significantly dial-down the rhetoric.

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sometimes, style counts as much as substance

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:37 @ Bill

You know, like the ad we're torching in this thread.

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Think you are confusing the punch line with substance

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:42 @ HumanRobot

[ No text ]

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Notre Dame: Fighting for a more creative fan base!

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:41 @ Eric M

[ No text ]

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Notre Dame strives for excellence in all things

by CK08, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:33 @ Eric M

except newspaper ads demanding the firing of the football coach and athletic director.

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it doesn't even demand the firings!

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:38 @ CK08

It would make more sense and look better if it did that

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It's like Leslie Knope's campaign ad against Bobby

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:42 @ Mike (bart)

Newport. It consists of an unintelligible laundry list of crammed-together information. And it doesn't even contain an "ask" (just like Leslie failed to indicate in any way that she was running for office).

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Bannon would be proud.

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:07 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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1. I don't know if I understand this

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:12 @ Grantland

2. I think it's important to claim here that there is a reasonable case to be made that Kelly's time has run its course and that the football program hasn't done great under Swarbrick


3. Bannon, I think, is a very smart person (and also potentially a horrifyingly scary person). The critique of this ad is that its half baked and a strategic nothing, which is different from that guy's m.o. I would say

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It twists facts. That is all I was getting at.

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:16 @ Mike (bart)

[ No text ]

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eh, I think the facts of the case are fine

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:18 @ Grantland

and all propagandists twist facts and situations, professional and amateur. That's what advocacy is

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You can't be that obvious about it.

by MattG, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:24 @ Mike (bart)

To cite in the same ad, with no explanation, a team's performance over the last 9 years, 7 years, 4 years, and 3 years, depending on the stat you want to cite... that's clownish.

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that's a good point

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:29 @ MattG

especially since there's enough there for one coherent case, as opposed to trying to win 6 or 7 independent but cross-cutting cases

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I can't find the gofundme page. Is it gone?

by Grantland @, y'allywood, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:03 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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GoFundMe effectively shut it down

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:15 @ Grantland
edited by Brendan, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:31

They didn't say "stop this campaign," but they froze it for not complying with their terms of service and the organize backed out. I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what the issue was, but from what I can gather they wanted the person organizing it to be clearer about who she was and on whose behalf she was acting. She got a little frazzled with all of it and decided to withdraw and refund everyone's money, per her comment on the campaign page before it went down. Here's her comment:

Yesterday GoFundMe froze the newspaper ad campaign from withdrawing money. They wanted more clarification about who I am and asked me to tell you that funds would be drawn in my name. They are within their rights for asking me to do this and I have updated my campaign. However, as I am up all night worrying about having frozen funds and missing a deadline for the papers once approved, not to mention possible liabilities, I realized that I am done. I am so sorry I am letting everyone down. I am going to ask them to issue everyone a refund. If anyone wants to take the torch from me, I still have the designs, figures, and contacts...

That led to some speculation on NDN that the university pressure GoFundMe into shutting the campaign down. Like GoFundMe would give a shit.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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Honestly, it made me laugh

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:25 @ Jay

I know that's probably a mean reaction, but it's such a sad little attempt at outrage.

---
At night, the ice weasels come.

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Someone set it against the C4C letter the other day

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:54 @ Jeff (BGS)

I think it was Jay, in fact; the comparison really highlights the difference between how effective their message was then and how utterly ineffective this will be. The C4C letter was a carefully constructed, reasonably worded letter to express concern, and it was sent from the NDN Board Ops on behalf of their constituency to the board. This a slapdash amalgam of complaints with no call to action posted in a very public forum and with no attribution, and on top of that it looks completely amateurish. Honestly, LSUfreek would've put something together that had more emotional impact and effect. They might as well have used the whitespace at the bottom to say "P.S. I am not a crackpot."

The whole thing is encapsulated perfectly in one of the donor's comments on the GoFundMe campaign page:

This is probably pissing up wind, but we cannot stand by and do nothing.

You're right, bud. It is pissing up wind. And needing to do something is not a justification for doing just anything. You want to make sure that your complaints go unheard, that they're dismissed as the poorly organized ragings of a bitter fan base? Take out an ad like this.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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I'm getting a weird image from that

by Jack @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 15:01 @ Brendan

Of a guy running sideways so he won't get wet pissing upwind.

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This sums up my feelings nicely

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:05 @ Brendan

Wanting change is an individual prerogative, but setting up a website whose sole purpose is to humiliate someone is neither mature nor intelligent. Anyone who would operate such a site, regardless of who the coach is or what he or she may claim about their allegiances, is no Notre Dame fan. If you want change, work for it in the context of your support and love for the university, not via embarrassing slobberings about how a football team isn't winning enough.

http://www.ndnation.com/misc/firecharlieweis.php

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They should revise "embarrassing slobberings" to

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:43 @ Bill

include a hyperlink to the ad.

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In the spirit of continuing to celebrate ND's poor

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:12 @ Jay

off the field track record under Kelly.....

It's important to point out Brian's firm opposition to this event.*

* Kelly not only opposed his players uniting with local area youth, he then demanded that instead of donating $125 for each child, that they should have to pay $125 to hang out with his football players. But this was all rectified once pissed off Irish fans who want to make ND great again™ restored natural order.

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Many people are saying it's great

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:54 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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I'll add this was a Trump joke

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:17 @ NDTerp

Lol that ad is fucking terrible

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Are there any red hats being made in Chee-ina?

by Jack @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:14 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Sad!

by PAK, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:02 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Unfair!

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:48 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Chris got it

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:42 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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I suspect that is because some of those people

by hobbs, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:19 @ NDTerp

had a hand in the creation and placement of the ad.

I get that there are a lot of low information posters out there who go for that stuff, but I honestly don't see the point of the ad.

Is it to embarrass ND?
Is it to shame them into action?
Is it to make the ad creators feel better about themselves and their commitment to excellence?

The ad itself looks like it was thought of and constructed by a bunch of 7th graders in an arts class. Hell, my first reaction to it was to laugh.

I just don't think serious people are going to be moved by such amateurish nonsense.

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I honestly think the most important point

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:37 @ hobbs

There are reasonably large groups of alumni and interested followers who believe the management of the football program over the past several years has been delinquent. I did not participate in the funding or design of the ad, so I can't speak for those folks who did. I post relatively infrequently both here and on NDNation. I think the creators of the ad needed some outlet in which to express their outrage. I do not begrudge that, nor do I think they deserve ridicule for it.

Let's face it: like many other high-affinity institutions, there is a fair amount of navel-gazing going on at Notre Dame. This is not limited to the athletic department. Jack Swarbrick's interview last week really set people off (indeed, I thought it was completely contrived and unnecessarily patronizing). The idea that people wanted to take a drastic step to criticize the administration of the football program causes me not one iota of concern, especially when it remains unclear whether there are folks within the administration who think that the program's current status and trajectory are unsatisfactory.

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I'm OK with ridiculing it.

by MattG, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:34 @ Buffalo

They present their argument amateurishly and dishonestly.

There is an objective, reasonable argument against retaining Kelly.

(I'm less sure about Swarbrick, though. He has negotiated ND through a period of unprecedented conference realignment, while maintaining football independence AND getting access to the ACC bowl slate. I'm still not sure how he pulled that off.

These people are upset about the 2016 football season. I fail to see a single thing that our AD could have done ahead of this year to avoid these on-field results.)

And this is definitely light ridicule. I'm not going to take out an ad in the Wall Street Journal citing my problems with their Observer ad.

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I started a gofundme for a billboard facing their billboard

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:45 @ MattG

[ No text ]

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I think Jay and others have hit upon my point

by hobbs, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:15 @ Buffalo

I expect more from ND alumni. I expect more from a site that doesn't allow posters to say "scholly" in a post because ND demands better. The Call4Change was a great example. It was measured and serious in tone. As a result it was reprinted in full by a number of newspapers. You could tell that serious adults were behind the effort and that is partly why it entered the public dialogue. Heck even SC fans were moved by the C4C letter. They respected it.

This?

This is a joke, and despite the good meaning behind it, it will be treated as such.

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To this point, the "letter" (I believe a google doc) that

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:39 @ hobbs

they are asking people to "sign" and send to the BOT and Fellows is insane.

Bryan Driskell would criticize it as far too verbose.

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text

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:51 @ BillyGoat

Dear Respected Members of the University of Notre Dame Board of Fellows:

As the successors and associates in office of the founders of the University of Notre Dame, you are in a unique position to determine the University’s priorities and safeguard her identity. We, the undersigned alumni, are deeply concerned that the current trajectory of our Athletic Department is undermining the University’s values and departing from the University’s established principles. Consequently, we write to you to explain our misgivings and encourage you to implement necessary changes. Namely, the current athletic director and head football coach must be relieved of their responsibilities and replaced by stewards committed to our institutional pursuit of excellence and the preservation of our school’s identity.

According to the University’s Statement of Principles for Intercollegiate Athletics: “Notre Dame therefore dedicates itself to the pursuit of excellence in intercollegiate athletics within the framework of an academic community committed to the University's educational and religious objectives.” This dedication to excellence in athletics flows from our University’s larger commitment to pursue excellence in all endeavors; as Father Hesburgh famously said in a letter to Sports Illustrated: “There has indeed been a surrender at Notre Dame, but it is a surrender to excellence on all fronts.”

It should not need to be said, but say it we will: college football has been an indispensable contributor to the University’s development, and remains a vital part of her identity. The fame and devotion it inspired among immigrant Catholics during the twentieth century allowed millions, including the parents and grandparents of many of the undersigned, to forge a bond with a school many of them never attended nor even visited. To these subway alumni, the University represented their own best aspirations, and the football team’s successes brought our school into the public consciousness in a way that has furthered our ability to grow, develop, and serve our Catholic mission. Today, a successful football program still has great power to bring the University’s message to communities and individuals who might not otherwise hear it. Additionally, the football program fosters invaluable bonds between alumni across generations as few other experiences can.

Setting lofty goals and achieving them against all odds has been our University’s central narrative. From Fr. Sorin’s legendary response to the fire of 1879, to Jesse Harper’s and Knute Rockne’s gridiron successes against the anti-Catholic college football establishment of the early 20th century, to the drive to make our school into one of the premier research institutions in the world, the pursuit of excellence has been our controlling ethos. In his Inaugural Address, Fr. Jenkins decried complacency and promised “a fresh emphasis” on the “distinctive strengths of Notre Dame”. In our lives at Notre Dame and as we have pursued our chosen vocations thereafter, we the undersigned have done our best to live this pursuit of excellence for the greater glory of God and Our Lady.

Reviewing the decisions made by our Athletic Department regarding our football program, we must conclude it has failed to uphold these high standards. Our football team has stumbled through its third-worst season in program history, the fourth season with five or more losses during Coach Kelly’s seven years at the University. During that span, Coach Kelly’s teams have lost 16 games to unranked opponents, including embarrassing defeats at the hands of Tulsa, South Florida, Duke, and the Naval Academy twice. Coach Kelly’s teams have performed markedly below Notre Dame’s historical norm, and have routinely appeared unprepared in fundamental components of the game. Troublingly, Coach Kelly has been defiant and dismissive of concerns or criticism, deflecting blame instead upon the players whom his poor management so often places in untenable positions. Coach Kelly’s cumulative record is categorically inconsistent with our stated dedication to the pursuit of athletic excellence.

This failure has been particularly stark given the unprecedented concessions the University has made to Coach Kelly’s preferences regarding a training table, increased time spent by players in the athletes-only Guglielmino Complex, relaxed disciplinary standards compared to those enforced in prior years, and even removing the team Mass from the gameday schedule. If we are to adhere to our principles, Coach Kelly must be replaced by an individual with demonstrated head coaching success at the highest levels of college football.

More concerning still is the dogged support expressed by Athletic Director Jack Swarbrick for his foundering coaching hire. Going beyond the standard “vote of confidence” typically provided to flailing coaches mid-season, Mr. Swarbrick has gone so far as to guarantee that Coach Kelly will return for the 2017 season. Coach Kelly has in return publicly thanked Mr. Swarbrick for being his “advocate”, exacerbating concerns raised by the above-described concessions that Mr. Swarbrick may be subjugating his stewardship of the University to his personal loyalties to his employee. Aside from this inexplicable commitment to Coach Kelly’s continuing mediocrity, recent changes in Athletic Department policy under Mr. Swarbrick’s leadership have been antithetical to our University’s values and traditions. Several years ago, the Athletic Department implemented “tiered pricing”, which in practice has seen increased ticket prices across the board, and particularly exorbitant pricing for more anticipated contests. This practice has drastically over-inflated ticket prices, particularly during the subpar seasons which have marked most of Coach Kelly’s tenure.

Recent seasons have also seen thousands of premium seats withheld from the alumni lottery as part of an “upgrade” program, where ticket holders who have already paid $75-150 for corner or end zone seats are offered seats between the 20 yard lines for an unseemly additional markup of hundreds of dollars. Bilking alumni in this way should not be what we do.

Indeed, in recent weeks the University’s apparent avarice was on display again, as we entered into an unprecedented agreement with a secondary market ticketing vendor, Vivid Seats. For years, the University warned alumni against scalping tickets won in the lottery, and even punished some of the offenders. Now, it would appear the Athletic Department prefers to exploit these secondary market sales rather than discourage them. It can be no coincidence that in times of lower demand, which during the Kelly era have been the rule rather than the exception, this agreement gives the University a more efficient and cost-effective way to attempt to redistribute thousands of returned or unsold tickets. We can’t help but observe that, as Mr. Swarbrick has scheduled dregs such as Toledo, Ball State, Bowling Green, Miami (OH), and New Mexico in the coming years, a contingency plan for thousands upon thousands of unused tickets may indeed be prudent.

Additionally, Mr. Swarbrick has presided over a series of devolving changes which have made the Notre Dame football experience more like every other football game in the country. Jock rock blares oppressively from stadium speakers, an artificial field has been laid, tumorous additions have been slapped on to three sides of the stadium in the name of increased revenue from loge and luxury seating, and a jumbotron will soon be hung above the southern end zone. Where visiting fans once complimented our “pure” stadium experience, focused on the game itself, they will now be confronted with the same mediocre bells and whistles that can be found at any other venue. Worse still, the University has stipulated to academic misconduct involving several players and a student trainer over the course of multiple academic years, resulting in the University being placed on probation and the NCAA indicating its intent to vacate 21 wins in which players ineligible due to said misconduct participated. Mr. Swarbrick’s Athletic Department has further entrenched mediocre football performance, contradicted long-established University values, exploited alumni and fans, and undermined traditions central to the Notre Dame football experience. He as well must be replaced by an individual committed to pursuing excellence and protecting Notre Dame’s distinctive traits and programmatic integrity.

By no reasonable measure have Coach Kelly and Mr. Swarbrick upheld our institutional mission to pursue excellence in conformance with the University’s values. If University leadership takes our stated principles seriously, these men simply must be replaced. Action, or inaction, speaks louder than words.

In that spirit, and after careful consideration of the above, we the undersigned will withhold any donations which support the Athletic Department while the stewardship of its most valuable resource is thus mismanaged.

Thank you for your time and consideration of our concerns.
In Notre Dame,

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P.S. I am not a crank

by professor @, Tallahassee, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:50 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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oh balls

by professor @, Tallahassee, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 17:49 @ Jay

"Look, guys, if we want them to take us seriously we had better use lots of long sentences and big words. Because that's what serious people do, right?"

It cannot be said often enough how backwards this is. The usual result of using lots of long sentences and big words is that it is a TOTAL CHORE to read and understand what you are saying, so any intelligent person just gives up after the first paragraph.

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Leave no noun untouched by an adjective

by JRT, Island of Misfit Toys, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 16:40 @ Jay
edited by JRT, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 16:43

[ No text ]

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Clocks in at over 1300 words.

by Pete, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:36 @ Jay

Which, by my math, makes it about 5.1 times better than the Gettysburg Address.

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it's not that bad

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:06 @ Jay

The span between "avarice" and "tumorous" is pretty off the goddamn rails, and it's probably 50% too long, but this is way more sober and credible than the ad. It even has a specified audience and a requested course of action

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I can handle this.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:15 @ Mike (bart)

[ No text ]

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Brevity is beautiful.

by Coach Gillespie, Omaha, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:36 @ Mike (bart)

That letter is hideous.

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The substance is fine, but there are parts where the

by Bryan (IrishCavan), Howth Castle and Environs, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:14 @ Mike (bart)

writing makes me cringe. The use of passive voice throughout is particularly irksome. As you note, it needs to be more concise as well.

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agree

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:07 @ Mike (bart)

[ No text ]

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If this is the way our alums write,

by CK08, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:54 @ Jay

we need to fire the people in charge of First Year Comp, because they're doing a much worse job than the football staff.

I struggled to get through the first paragraph.

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Other than the linebreaks, it was impossible to identify

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:55 @ CK08

any segment of that "letter" as a paragraph.

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I have a question on this point

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:50 @ Buffalo

Jack Swarbrick's interview last week really set people off

And apologies, because I don't read any other ND football message boards anymore but at least the sane and staunchly anti-Kelly folks here were demanding to hear from Jack, so that he could at least set the record straight about Kelly's future. That was the primary gist of the frustration, even though everybody already knew what he was going to say.

Are you saying that there are folks that are even more outraged now despite the fact that they knew in advance the substance of whatever Jack said?

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I listened to it the other day

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:17 @ Domer99

I don't have an automatic bias against everything that comes out of his mouth so my radar might be off a bit, but I thought he was pretty forthcoming (and went further than he really had to). It was what I thought it would be, and a bit more. He actually said 4-8 is unacceptable and there are no excuses.

I think anybody expecting him to slam his own coach in an interview has unreasonable expectations as to what his job requires.

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I think an enormous factor in how one feels about the

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:47 @ Jay

football program turns on that person's opinion of Swarbrick.

I will admit that I'm a Swarbrick fan but he said pretty much all the same things that I would have said if I had been in his shoes.

My feelings about Swarbrick have put me in this position looking ahead to next year -- I believe that significant staff changes were a precondition to Kelly returning, and the fact that Kelly is returning portends a staff shakeup. I don't want Swarbrick to be requiring specific coaches be hired. But I strongly believe, for example, that the new DC will be someone not currently on staff.

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I'm with you

by CK08, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:51 @ BillyGoat

I completely understand why people want Kelly fired. But Swarbrick has done, in my mind, an excellent job as AD. Hell, even if it's just about football, do people really want to try to execute a coaching search with no AD in place?

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Tone and packaging

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:57 @ Domer99

It was brutal. Did you watch it?

I suggest you do. It was an orchestrated, patronizing explication of the situation. Nolan's questioning (that's being charitable) was leading and pre-empted any dissent and his follow-up was non-existent. I honestly think it'd have been better just to have Swarbrick put out a written statement.

There was virtually no acknowledgement of what we all saw: gross mismanagement of the football program over the last few years. Swarbrick's tone and responses were condescending: basically, it was "people really can't understand or process all the variables I consider" when evaluating the football program.

He was dismissive of the NCAA sanctions. He called last year's coaching job "one of the finest he's seen," and professed to have been around elite coaches for 30 years. It was all just such a load of horseshit that any critically thinking adult would struggle to watch and listen.

Had he come out and said the following, it'd have been less insulting: "I'm sticking with Kelly. He hasn't done everything right, but we're changing the things that need to change to fix it. The year was unacceptable and we are committed to not only do better, but to pursue and win national championships."

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Doesn't he do a frequent (weekly?) podcast with Nolan?

by CK08, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:45 @ Buffalo

I think it was intentionally packaged into something "business as usual" but I understand how having Nolan asking the questions would come off as patronizing, since everyone knows he's an internal employee and not really a journalist.

So I get that. However, having watched the whole thing on WatchND, I though Swarbrick's comments could be accurately summed up into what you wrote in your last paragraph, with a side of controlled outrage over the NCAA ruling. I personally had no problem with his statements whatsoever.

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Absolutely.

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:47 @ CK08

He's been doing the same weekly "Jack Swarbrick Show" for about as long as he's been at ND. Same release schedule and format. If he wanted to convey 'business as usual' he picked the right medium.

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the interview portion transcripts I've seen could,

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:56 @ Domer99

in my opinion, be very fairly described as contrived and patronizing.

In my mind, though, that's all the more reason that any kind of voicing of outrage(!) over that should have, if it was going to be credible, carried some kind of call to action, been more carefully crafted, or both. Call for a boycott if you really think it's that big a deal. Or, if you are more concerned with the symbolic effort, actually put some care into the symbol

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Its poor design obscures the message

by irishvol @, Music City, USA, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:49 @ Buffalo

[ No text ]

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I don't disagree

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:58 @ irishvol

But it's honest.

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It's cherry-picked stats and quotes

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:03 @ Buffalo

It's ignoring that last year was a top-ten team. It's offering no suggestions for a way forward. It includes "Academic Cheating" and "Arrests," which - spoiler alert - occur at every single college because 18-22 year-olds do dumb shit. It's not even signed by the True Fans who funded it. I'm honestly embarrassed for everyone involved, but I'm glad some people are taking pride in its lunacy.

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You know what embarrasses me?

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:35 @ CW (Rakes)

Justly deserved ridicule from co-workers and clients about losing to Navy and Duke and to most every team worth a shit during Kelly's tenure. The holier-than-thou approach Notre Dame and its alumni and fans take, proclaiming how we do things "the right way," then hiding behind catch phrases like "it happens everywhere!" or "it was just a few students making bad decisions" when we get smacked for academic misconduct. Feeling like a fool spending good money and more valuable time following a team that can stumble through disastrous campaigns like this year, with no accountability for these results. Pouring $450 million into a stadium renovation under the guise of academic development.

But who's keeping track?

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Sincere questions on this comment

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:49 @ Buffalo
edited by Domer99, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 08:07

[p]roclaiming how we do things "the right way," then hiding behind catch phrases like "it happens everywhere!" or "it was just a few students making bad decisions" when we get smacked for academic misconduct.

Doesn't the first part of that cut against the essence of the whole "off the field" rationale of the ad? Is disciplining bad behavior doing things the wrong way?

Seems like some points are being conflated here. Because bad behavior actually does happen everywhere. And that isn't always preventable. But how one disciplines distinguishes whether the institution condones such actions. Billy goat asked this above, would the angry denizens of ND fans prefer ND sweep this stuff under the rug so that it didn't come into public purview? Do these same fans think that football players, and heck just studenst in general, weren't committing bad behavior back when Leahy or Ara were the coaches at ND?

I get really lost on the "off the field" behavior point. And especially the timing of making the argument now, and it being a primary criteria for Kelly's dismissal.

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I'm not saying you have to like it or not

by Jack @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:28 @ Buffalo

And I honestly don't care if you do or you don't, but it's juuuuust a bit more than a "stadium renovation".

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I understand it is a multi-purpose facility.

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:34 @ Jack

But let's not pretend that the primary purpose of the project is something other than wringing money out of the school's most recognizable property. It's financed with ticket revenue, right?

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It's financed primarily with donations

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:20 @ Buffalo

The university won't move ahead with a project until they have commitments from donors for at least half of the total money. I don't know exactly what portion of the cost is coming from donations, but it has to be more than half. The remainder, per the university's project FAQ page, is coming from a bond issue and the sale of those "premium" seats, so yes, some of it is coming from ticket revenue.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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plus, what kind of ND fan lines up with the NCAA

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:25 @ CW (Rakes)

AND the SBPD against Notre Dame?

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When Zahm resident Evan O'Leary got busted for pot...

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:23 @ Jay
edited by Domer99, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:41

and possessing a gun in Chicago, Zahm rector, Fr. Matthew Hovde, C.S.C., should have had his ass canned. That kind of "out of the class behavior" can't be tolerated.

* Ok, for complete disclosure, I don't know if Evan O'Leary really lives in Zahm or not (or if he exists), but the damn dude should probably be arrested anyway for having an association with Zahm.

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And based on their 'off the field' accountability demands

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:28 @ Jay

Only Pat Fitzgerald can be our next coach.

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That's what drives me crazy about the knee-jerk reaction

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:15 @ Bill

of fans to the "embarrassing" academic and other incidents involving our football players.

Would they rather be Stanford in terms of the academic issues? Where the complete absence of any reported academic misconduct by any football player during this run of theirs completely defies logic and simply has to suggest that those things are just getting whitewashed?

Would they rather have a local police department like they do in Tallahassee, where incidents much more series than those we've seen at ND (other than perhaps Redfield and Butler) are covered up (at best)?

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Your "Top 10 Team" is also cherry picking

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:16 @ CW (Rakes)

Actually, it's not accurate. They were #11 in the final poll.

I get that the ad looks terrible and that it will have likely zero impact on any changes this year.

I do think a "Call for Action" is completely reasonable and hate that the style of it got in the way of that.

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Also, facts.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:50 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

[ No text ]

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What facts are inaccurate?

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 05:03 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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  103 views

I'm less interested in the polls

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:24 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

They were 7th in FEI and 8th in the S&P+. In no way in no world was Iowa better than ND last year, regardless of what a poll said.

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  500 views

That is called cherry picking your facts

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 05:04 @ CW (Rakes)

[ No text ]

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  103 views

I agree

by irishvol @, Music City, USA, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:18 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

[ No text ]

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  475 views

I agree with this

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:16 @ Rob (Rakes of Mallow)

[ No text ]

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  474 views

All it's going to accomplish

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:05 @ CW (Rakes)

is driving a bigger wedge between the administration and the Notre Dame Internet.

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  512 views

That's a good way of putting it, because

by Jack @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:53 @ Jim (fisherj08)

Most ND fans and alums aren't actively on the Notre Dame internet.

The ratio of lurkers to posters is enormous. Then there are those who only post or lurk on one site and on no others. And then there are the even larger numbers of people who don't even lurk.

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  350 views

Where's the pride of authorship?

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:45 @ Buffalo

If you look at the GoFundMe page, most people donated anonymously. The ad was run anonymously. Accountability? Zero. None. Absolutely None.

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  554 views

So at least Kelly's familiar with that notion.

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:51 @ Bill

[ No text ]

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  533 views

Maybe he does.

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:12 @ Buffalo

But when you're standing up in front of a room full of reporters to discuss the NCAA report and sanctions, in which the whole point of ND's appeal against the sanctions was that there was no institutional involvement in providing 'additional benefits', it would seem rather foolish on Kelly's part to state that he's accountable for it all.

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  507 views

the ad is patently embarrassing

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:41 @ Buffalo

They should have slept on it for a couple of weeks. There really was no reason to rush this out without a clean message and design. There are enough professional people with design chops floating around over there that there's no excuse to put out something this poor. I think the ridicule is deserved.

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  604 views

I offered my services.

by MTIrish, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:21 @ Jay
edited by MTIrish, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:25

Lord knows they read this board. That ad could have been a contender. We all could have gone to Canne.

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  308 views

Exactly; it's shockingly amateurish

by JD in Portland ⌂, Portland OR, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:16 @ Jay
edited by JD in Portland, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:23

The self-importance of it is stunning and laughable.
The topper is the purple faced photo of Kelly. I'm sure whoever was behind this thought that was especially clever.
The good news is that it is so juvenile and stupid, that when Meyer and Harbaugh distribute it to every recruit for the next couple years, it will be very easy for ND recruiters to quickly dismiss it with the back of their hand as the work of the sort of immature lunatic fringe that every school has a few of. It won't make BK or Jack look nearly as bad as our most extreme internet followers.
At a certain level, it's hilarious. It's essentially a spoof of college football fans.

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I hope that you're right about the ad's impact, but

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 11:54 @ JD in Portland

I wonder if ND recruiters will be able to dismiss it that easily? There clearly are a lot of people in this country who will believe anything that fits their world view. And I expect that most high school football players aren't very worldly/knowledgable. So I can easily see them believing this crap, especially when it's handed to them by the negative recruiters that we face.

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  355 views

the self-importance point is a good one

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:27 @ JD in Portland

there's the message, either conscious or not, of "I do not have to articulate this rigorously or clearly in order to be taken seriously. I will be taken seriously just by showing up."

Further/again, there's also no stated point to the ad: no proposal for mobilization, no attempt to provoke thought, it's just a declaration of "Look how correct I am."


And I'm someone who thinks that the case behind the ad is largely correct

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  482 views

Why wait?

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:50 @ Jay

If the objection is aesthetics, I understand your objection. It ain't pretty. I wish it had been professionally produced, primarily because--to your point--the people in the administration who need to know that there is significant disagreement with the program's management will be inclined to discount the message because of its presentation.

One thing I learned from the recent presidential election process, however, is that genuine reaction sometimes is more influential than slick-produced presentation of positions. So I don't object for blurting this out immediately following Swarbrick's howler of an interview.

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I'm saying make sure it's a solid before sending

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:04 @ Buffalo

There was no reason for a rush job. No external deadline was coming down. No critical decision window. They had plenty of time to refine it.

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  528 views

I mean, even another 2 hours could have really cleaned it up

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 10:06 @ Jay

It's about standards

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  511 views

It's bigly.

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:14 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

---
"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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The design is top notch.

by irishvol @, Music City, USA, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:09 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Phil Steele thinks they did not cram enough in.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:28 @ irishvol

[ No text ]

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  549 views

they should have just made an ad of 4 mocked up NDTrump

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:58 @ PMan

tweets. Would have been a lot more clever, entertaining and compelling

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  525 views

PMan: TPG POY 16-17 VHT

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:47 @ PMan

[ No text ]

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  517 views

Maybe upgrade from Windows 95 before doing the next one.

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:23 @ irishvol

[ No text ]

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  549 views

Lots of dumb people in the world.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:02 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Sad!

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:05 @ Joe

[ No text ]

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image within

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:52 @ Jay

[image]

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If nothing else, I know who their favorite wrestler is.

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:49 @ Jay

[image]

---
"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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  661 views

as somebody else mentioned

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:47 @ Jay

the coopting of the "fighting for" campaign language for this purpose is pretty low, as is the lack of a "paid for by" attribution.

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And of course, it is running the week of the "Echoes"

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:51 @ Jay

When players will be recognized for their contributions, their parents will be in town to visit and a number of important recruits will be on campus making their official visits to ND.

So yeah, great timing.

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  656 views

I'm surprised no attribution was required

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:49 @ Jay

I mean, not even a "Paid for By Citizens for a Better ND" or something.

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well, regardless of who designed it and paid for it

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:09 @ HullieAndMikes

all of NDNation owns it.

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They should have put their name on it, then.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:22 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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When you write something, sign your name...

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:36 @ Joe

[image]

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why didn't they?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:32 @ Joe

[ No text ]

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It might hurt future book sales.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 12:37 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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  285 views

There's even space at the bottom!

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:34 @ Jay

Such bravery.

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  590 views

I don't even see the motivation to anonymity

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 09:59 @ CW (Rakes)

[ No text ]

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  502 views

I doubt it was a conscious decision

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:15 @ Mike (bart)

Or, perhaps more accurately, I would guess it was one of two things:

1) A less-than-complete understanding of how the ad would be viewed by an audience which led to the unconscious exclusion of a rather critical bit,

OR

2) A desire to avoid attribution to NDN because it would make a fair number of readers dismiss it out of hand, fairly or not.

Both are equally plausible. If it's (1), it rolls right into the reasons behind the aesthetic and the mish-mash message in the ad, so it would hardly be surprising. If it's (2), that's a decent reason not to attribute it to NDN, but they didn't complete the thought and realize how it would look if they attribute it to nobody. They need look no further than the fine print at the end of political ads for some inspiration.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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  294 views

Its gutless.

by hobbs, San Diego, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:59 @ HullieAndMikes

[ No text ]

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  600 views

Anonymously, of course.

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 08:45 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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