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Buckle up!

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:41

It's going to be a bumpy ride.

---
"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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Also a great exchange about Kizer

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:39 @ Chris

Q. And DeShone is usually -- despite whether you guys win or lose after a game he's calm and mature in measure when he comes into the postgame news conferences, where he could refuse to talk to the media or be emotional. I was wondering in the recruiting process --
BRIAN KELLY: You want me to be more like him?

Q. No, that's not what I'm getting at all! (Chuckles.) I was wondering what off-field qualities attracted you to him during the recruiting process?
BRIAN KELLY: He was measured and calm, all of the things that I'm not.

Q. Is there anything --
BRIAN KELLY: Opposites attract.

Q. Is that really what you noticed in recruiting him?
BRIAN KELLY: Sure, absolutely.

Q. Was there something specific you noticed --
BRIAN KELLY: He threw a lot of touchdown passes, too. Yeah, he had a calmness about him. I thought the things that stood out for me was late games. He was really good in late game comebacks, taking his team, being measured, calm, composed and winning games late. I really liked that about him.

"Why did you recruit Deshone?" "Opposites attract. And he threw a lot of touchdowns." Ha.

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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I love this. Good to see he still has a sense of humor

by Turtlecrack, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:49 @ Brendan

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I think banter is with The Observer's student reporter, too.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:41 @ Brendan

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She's new with Indy Star. Just looks like a student.

by KA123 @, Manhattan Beach, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 15:57 @ PMan

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Thanks.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 21:45 @ KA123

I feel extra old.

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And some more humor at the end

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:47 @ PMan

"I just look to your blog." Bwa ha ha...

Q. Do you reach outside here for advice or input? What are you seeing? What do you think? Do you talk to Jack Swarbrick about it? What do you think? Or do you just rely on your coaches and keep everything inside this building?
BRIAN KELLY: I just look to your blog. That's where I get all my information! Honestly, I'll talk to Jack because he has a good perspective. He's around the team a lot, Jack Swarbrick. He's around the team. He's got a good sense from his perspective. So he can share some thoughts with me relative to what he sees and he's been really good. Then what I try to do is I try to use my 27 years of experience of, okay, when did I experience something like this?

Now, not necessarily being 2-4, but the make-up of the team being similar and how I went about trying to get them back on the right track.

So, yes, I guess, is the answer to your question, is taking some advice from outside because they give you a fresher perspective and then try to rely on some of my experiences over the past couple of decades and go from there.

THE MODERATOR: Thank you, everybody.

BRIAN KELLY: That doesn't mean I don't read the blog, but I don't (Chuckles.) Sorry! I will when I retire, I swear!

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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The full quote, as usual, has a different tone

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:30 @ Chris
edited by Brendan, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:37

I'm just coaching. I've got a great relationship with my players. I'm just coaching. I'm being Brian Kelly. If people have a problem with that, then they're not going to be friends or fans of Notre Dame football. I can't help that. I don't feel like I'm crossing a line. I think I'm being who I am. I'm being direct. I'm handling the situation as it hits me. I guess that's the best I can say. I'm just going to be who I am. If I feel like there is a matter that needs to be attended to, I need to handle it right away.

Yeah, there's a little "take it and like it" in there, but I don't think what he said is objectionable.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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Honestly, I dont have time for those fans.

by River, Hell of the Upside Down Sinners, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:55 @ Chris

I know we have them here so I am not pigeonholing a certain site or sect of ND fans. I also readily admit that they may be in the right at this point, but.....

I don't want Brian Kelly to act like someone else. He is less effective and not as beneficial to the ND football team when he is/has been conforming to some made up sense of ND culture and entitlement. Be Brian Kelly. If that's not good enough then find someone who is good enough. Oh, and good luck with that at this point and time.

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The focus on yelling is just people trying to find

by Turtlecrack, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:46 @ River

A faster way to fire him. I don't mind the yelling...I mind the losing. The press conference negative name highlighting is self defeating on many levels though

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Let Kelly be Kelly

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:59 @ River
edited by Greg, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:06

He has a team to coach, and he may lose his job if he does it his way. But it sounds like he's going to do it his way because it's what he's going to do.

EDIT: took out a too-long video from a former show about politics.

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#asshat

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his whole presser has been a mea culpa

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:47 @ Chris

"I should have been doing [x] from day one...I took a lot for granted."

Over and over.

But I'm sure the tweet you highlighted will be the thing people grab onto.

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That "day one" comment:

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:46 @ Jay

Q. You mentioned the team understanding how to prepare, and I think when we talked to you last Thursday when you came in you lamented that they didn't. Is that the inconsistencies of a young team? You're going to have days where they practice great and look like they know how to prepare and they're going to have days where they don't and it's going to continue on like that for a little bit?
BRIAN KELLY: You know, I would say this: In all honesty, when you expect them to know it without actually drilling down deep enough, I think that falls on me not doing a good enough job, quite frankly. We got it on placards everywhere and it should be assumed that they know, but you know what? That falls on me to overemphasize the message.

So what's been happening is that I've been overemphasizing the message and they're getting it. I really should have been doing it from day one. I took a lot for granted that they knew it, and they really didn't. They kind of had a sense of it but not truly to the level that they needed to be. This past week going into the North Carolina State week, it all started to come together for them.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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We have a complete dearth of senior leadership

by CK08, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:52 @ Brendan

Jaylon, Fuller, Robinson, Elmer - those guys should be the leaders on this team, but none of them are on the team. A sophomore-led team like this one probably doesn't know "how to prepare on a day-to-day basis."

The problem for me is that issue is like the weather against NC State - Kelly should have seen it coming.

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ND's 2016 team experience

by Mark, Cloud City, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 11:53 @ CK08

I think I've mentioned this before, and I've probably read a good response, but in my middle age absent mindedness, I dont remember.

Just how young is this year's team compared to ND teams in the last 10 seasons?

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"After more than a decade of sub-par red zone TD efficiency... wait ... what? ... Hold on!"

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I don't know about comparing to past teams

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:17 @ Mark

But consider that everyone that regularly plays on the offensive side of the ball, save Durham Smythe, has eligibility remaining beyond this season.

The defense will graduate Jarron Jones, Rochell, Onwualu, Coke Luke, and Sebastian. We regularly play 4 true or redshirt freshmen in the secondary at one time.

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I believe Smythe has a fifth year

by CW (Rakes) @, Harlan County, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:19 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

Looks like that's right

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:21 @ CW (Rakes)

So literally the entire offense could come back. With Alize Jones.

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From an interested fan/alum perspective...

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:53 @ Jay

I think Kelly's diagnosis of this one aspect of the team's problems is probably very accurate.

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the character assassination is what I don't get

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:10 @ PMan

For some people (like Finebaum, but plenty of others) it's not enough to have failed as a football coach. BK must also be a miserable human being and incompetent (but a sinister underminer of the program) and an asshole and malicious and morally corrupt. We saw it in the last days of Davie and we saw it with Willingham and we saw it with Weis. We see it with coaches all over the place. I've said my share about these people at various times but the Two Minute Hates that erupt at times like this embarrass me. It's why I bristled at MTIrish saying "Fuck You Brian Kelly" in the slack (no offense Josh, we're good) and why I don't understand the need to ignore info that doesn't fit and spin everything else into the most personal affronts imaginable, as if Brian Kelly personally came to your house and shot your dog (or worse).

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I'm just reading this thread now....

by MTIrish, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 13:36 @ Jay

No issues on my end, although I believe I said "Fucking Fire Brian Kelly Now".

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Keep in mind that parts of our fan base

by Bill, Southern California, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:14 @ Jay

Think people who would like to see video boards in Notre Dame stadium have mental health issues. Besides, we're now in the 'crazy girlfriend' part of our fan base relationship, where you can just picture our fan base sitting in Brian Kelly's closet, mascara running down its face, a pair of scissors in its hand and shorn clothing littered all over the floor.

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I understand it.

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 05:52 @ Jay

Brian Kelly has never been shy about jabbing back in public at his detractors. He even publicly prodded the school during certain events (e.g., the Frozen Five deliberations).

Some feel that his public comments are gratuitous shots at his constituents. From "get used to it" to "if people have a problem with that, they're not going to be friends or fans of Notre Dame football, and I can't help that," some of his comments really take on a personal and possessive tone. As if you can't disagree with the way he's handling the team without betraying Notre Dame.

Most people who follow Notre Dame football (whether alumni or not) feel a deeper connection to the University than just another team to root for. They really bristle at the notion that this guy--who has been entrusted with what they perceive to be a nearly sacred institution--insinuates or expressly asserts that they are betraying the University if they turn on him. That makes it personal.

As a side note, I know a lot of people who will never forgive Kelly or Swarbrick for their failure to avert Declan Sullivan's death. I can understand that, too.

Finally, I know a number of people who work at Notre Dame who are upset at Kelly because they view him as the driver of what they consider an undue relaxation of standards--academic and personal behavior--for the football team. They view it is a character flaw. I disregard this view, largely, because I think these same people would bristle at pretty much any coach NOtre Dame hired whose name did not rhyme with Lyroam Billingham.

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I actually can't understand Declan Sullivan as an excuse.

by KGB, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:20 @ Buffalo

And I think it's objectively inaccurate to blame either one for that tragedy. Further, I think you'll find that the concentric circle of that group largely overlaps the circle that was already firmly against BK.

Frankly, f-ck those people.

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That whole saga is disappointing

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:26 @ KGB

Because these fans that still get fired up about that situation are more angry than the Sullivans, who have embraced the university through this tragedy.

If they are good with the university's and Kelly's response then why can't angry anti-BK internet fans?

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Exactly.

by KGB, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 13:56 @ Domer99

The outrage-by-proxy has always reeked of opportunism. Shut up and go away.

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for some, the character assassination predates his hiring

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:59 @ KGB

Everything perceived as damning since then has been simple confirmation.

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And it's not really about him

by Greg, the 'Dena, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:57 @ Jay
edited by Greg, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 08:05

It's about who he's not, and what his hiring meant vis-a-vis the desire to have who he's not. So instead of just judging on his record and his ability to adapt to and cope with ND's many unique characteristics in the college football world (for good, at the start when he was building things up and changing some of the longstanding negatives, and for not good this year), there's a need to tear him down as a person from the day he was hired.

It'll happen again with the next guy.

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#asshat

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There's of course the 'ND Football Ego Brigade'

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:44 @ Jay

For whom they fancy themselves as locked in an endless struggle of ideas against the ND admin, fencing above the heads of commoners in an epic, epochal struggle for the soul of Notre Dame. The vainglory oozes from every pore and would be horridly embarrassing were it not so entertaining.


In my experience this group is actually not endemic to the message board community

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I've always been fascinated by the paradox

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 08:45 @ Mike (bart)

Those that love to rail against the "administration" and the "athletic dept" and everyone else "under the Dome" but then profess to love ND. Do you really though?

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Eh, people do that about their country, their church

by Flann, Central New Jersey, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 10:05 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

or anything they care deeply about. It can certainly be taken to an absurd point where the powers that be can do no right. But it's just as bad, maybe worse if you think they can do no wrong.

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I certainly get that

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 10:17 @ Flann

But the level of vitriol often thrown around to just about every aspect of the University makes me wonder if there's anything left that those people actually "love" about ND. Or whether they just love the memories that they made there.

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Like the complaints about the administration's "greed".

by KGB, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:12 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

As if this were some newfound character trait that was absent when they went to school, or at any other point over the past four or five decades.

I would guess that the gripes of alums from the 40's & 50's were oddly similar, other than the fact that lack of technology offered the sweet relief of not having to read them on the internet constantly.

You do wonder sometimes if there's anything at all that some alums actually *like* about ND. I've met Michigan fans who were more complimentary.

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I think there's a little bit of a twist with technology

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:01 @ KGB

I tend to think it serves to persuade and influence a greater proportion. And I think it's largely successful in doing so.

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Reminds me of an Al Franken quote.

by Kevin @, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:25 @ KGB

"We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.
That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well."

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Quick poll: do you love ND?

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:33 @ Kevin

I don't. I mean, I like it just fine, and I certainly love a lot of the people I met through the school and the stuff I learned, but there's no magic in the sound of the name for me. Frankly, I go back and forth on whether that's even a productive notion at this point in the institution's maturity cycle.

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I love Notre Dame like a girlfriend.

by Kevin @, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:47 @ Mike (bart)

I pay for dinner and tell her she's beautiful when she wears her hair the way I tell her to, and I check her text messages, and I've helped her detach herself from all of her distracting friends. I love her so much. If she ever tries to leave again, boy will she learn a lesson!

[Smiles without opening mouth]

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do you have these riffs in a library in your brain

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:51 @ Kevin

or do you discover them once you start typing?

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The latter.

by Kevin @, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:55 @ Mike (bart)

I have an unfulfilling job, so my brain is often in suspend mode. That's why weird things sometimes start falling out when I type.

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+/- of the digital era

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 10:02 @ Kevin

On the one hand, lots of people enjoy immensely the jazz that ends up appearing in these small corners of the world.


On the other hand, if you'd lived, say, 40 years ago after you died they would have discovered some amazing out-of-context spiral bound notebooks in your cellar

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That's a really complicated question

by Greg, the 'Dena, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:47 @ Mike (bart)

I will always love my four years at Notre Dame. It was a special time of life, in a special place, with fantastic people.

So I'll always love the memories. There will always be a magic in the sound of the words "Notre Dame" or in hearing the band play those "other" songs that evoke memories that really can only be had by alums. And I'll always be grateful to Notre Dame for what it did for me and for the people I met and the experiences I had. I'll always like it and I'll always have a special place in my heart for it. But that love and those memories are of what once was. That's sappy, I know.

I also understand that Notre Dame continues to evolve. And I likely would not have the experiences today that I had twenty-plus years ago (and very well might not wind up loving the place were I to be a student today). So I'm faced with a choice -- rail against the changes and desire that everything stay the way it used to be, or accept that institutions change and that while I may not like everything about the change I really can't control it. I used to rail; I feared that acceptance would mean that I didn't love Notre Dame or that it didn't love me. But time and mature thought changed me. And they have allowed me to continue to love Notre Dame for what it was and for what it is, even though those things are different.

---
#asshat

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so, bear with me on an idea here re: ND as "special"

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:58 @ Greg

I think you're right on in that a place where you go during the becoming stage of adulthood that is full of inquiry and fun and the discovery of amazing people, etc. will always hold a special place in your heart, etc. is good and natural. I also think that's more of a "The 'Ol Alma Mater" point that's transferable to any number of university experiences.

In my experience, ND also holds its own experience as superior to others, or at least holds it as non-fungible. I think that was a very useful attitude during the period of becoming the institution itself had: the transformation from a small, regional liberal arts Catholic school to a world-significant Catholic university. I think a large part of the benefit there, though, comes from the galvanizing, aspirational effect of trying to attack and grow and make yourself into something exceptional. "We don't have all those things that 'Big Time Universities' have, but that doesn't matter because we have an indomitable spirit" wears very well for a school that, well, doesn't have all those things that 'Big Time Universities' have.

Now we do have all those things, though. It seems like that "magic" point is ill-fitting, not as useful, and forced. Not that I'm prescribing any type of ordinariness or dampening of ambition, but I do think that "What Though the Odds" mystique is more of a crutch or a set piece right now, and could stand to be revisited.

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I think it's special

by Coach Gillespie, Omaha, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 13:08 @ Mike (bart)

It’s not magical. I actually take offense to the idea that ND is magical. That implies that the Hand of God placed this gilded nipple of knowledge on fertile Indiana soil two hundred and fifty years ago and everything just appeared. I'm ten years removed from the place. So like LT said, it's not as central to my life as it was when I was in school. But just because we have some sappy songs and nostalgia-driven marketing campaigns doesn’t mean that Dome is built on a foundation of bullshit.

Do my kids have to go there? No. But if they did, I think their education would be unique. It would be special. Special does not mean inherently better. It does not mean that all of you blue collar kids who go to UIC are not as good as us blessed ND grads. It just means the place is different.

Parietals are different. The acceptance of both academic freedom and Catholic teaching is different. Single sex dorms are different. Nearly 100% of the student body attending the same event six times each year is different. Friend groups that pull from northern California, eastern Nebraska and western Connecticut are different. American presidents nearly always accepting the school’s invitation to speak is different. A nearly universally recognizable name is different.

Can you get all of this at another school? Yes. Are ND alums inherently better people, as many like to say and more like to think? Not at all. I wish more of us would cringe at that crap. But massive egos of certain alums aside, the place is special. It’s not magic. It’s not something we should preserve in a museum. It’s not better than everyone else. But Notre Dame was - and is - an experience that’s awfully hard to replicate.

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That's pretty well said and I agree.

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 14:22 @ Coach Gillespie

[ No text ]

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yeah, but you were "somebody"

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 13:29 @ Coach Gillespie

you were more enmeshed in a place-specific thing than most. You're not wrong - I just think you are the next model of the ND man. No pressure

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So you're telling me

by Coach Gillespie, Omaha, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 13:43 @ Mike (bart)

that you didn't think CroissantWorld was a funny comic.

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The magic thing is kind of self-perpetuating at this point,

by LT, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:25 @ Mike (bart)

I think. I also don't think it's particularly unique to ND, although ND is probably a very extreme case and one that we as alumni/fans see in all of its ugliness and glory more often than others. Universities (and most groups) are very invested in getting you invested in them for life. Every school has the nostalgic alumni outreach, every sports team believes its fans are the best in sports, every political group convinces its members of the urgency of the cause du jour, whatever.

I think ND's is heightened by the "subway alumni" phenomenon, some savvy marketing, unusually high/strong legacy ties, and big-time sports. But most colleges will sell you on the Middlebury experience, or the Penn State experience, or the Yale experience or whatever. They're all very invested in their alumni being invested. And they all rely on a strong sense of nostalgia. And an on-campus, somewhat isolated college will have a very specific and memorable experience for undergrads. As for ND's "magic," like Jay, I think the Catholic social justice and prominence of "what are you fighting for?" ads is something particularly worthwhile. And I think historically it's been important to a lot of US Catholics and I don't think it's a bad thing to not take that for granted.

Since you knew me in person in college, this may surprise you, but I feel like ND is really not a big part of my life at this point. I mean, I donate and I read this message board and I watch most of the games and will occasionally travel back for one, but I don't buy a lot of swag and am completely disinterested in reunion and don't anticipate having particularly strong feelings about my kids going there someday. It was a great part of my life, and a cool connection to my dad/sister/grandfather, and drinking bloody mary's and eating brats on a perfect fall day with great friends I don't see often is objectively a terrific activity, but, you know, it's a moment in time that I don't need to try to control for other people in the present day. Institutions evolve. Times change. I'm just so glad we didn't have smartphones.

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I think your third paragraph gets to it exactly

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:39 @ LT

There's a social reproduction/institutional maturity element at play. I think when the idea of ND was most powerful, and where the alliegances are most zealous, was maybe in generations past -- particularly the Hesburgh Era. Through that period, Notre Dame acted as foundation and crucible for the fates of entire families/generations, particularly for kids for whom there were (by self selection, family demand, or lack of choice) few other options. That mutual, reciprocal tenuousness could, I certainly think, create a feeling of mystique: an institution and a population pulling each other through the struggle of reaching the top. It's not a value judgement to say that when the "floor" as far as institutional and student outcomes is finally established and raised, that same dynamic of reciprocal tenuousness simply does not exist in the same way.

E.g., I think the ND of ca. 1982 could potentially lend a specifically powerful charge to the future of someone like your dad (Catholic farmboy from small town Iowa) than it ultimately did for you (suburban Philly (sic), two parents who hold university degrees, etc) or will for your kid(s) (even with two ND parents). I think it is probably pretty easy for you (and for most ND people, myself included) to picture their lives past, present, and future, without ND (maybe not without the people they met at ND, but that's a different question).

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I think you are conflating some things

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:19 @ Mike (bart)
edited by Domer99, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:22

The whole "what tho the odds" isn't exactly the same thing as the "special" nature some folks cling to. There may be some nostalgic overlap but I don't equate the 2 when I think of why the school was "special" to me.

And I guess that's part of why I take exception to this line:

I also think that's more of a "The 'Ol Alma Mater" point that's transferable to any number of university experiences.

There's certainly college nostalgia associated with probably nearly every university but it doesn't generally translate the same way as ND did for me. My wife went to a B1G school, still keeps in touch with close college friends, will root for that school if they are doing well, but has no special affinity for the place and has little desire to go back and visit. Simply put, college was a period for her that stopped when she graduated.

I am incredibly thankful for Notre Dame for a lot of reasons I believe to be somewhat unique. It put me in touch with the best friends I still maintain. It provided a spiritual platform that wasn't as present in my life and was something that I got to share with these great friends. It allowed me to challenge myself beyond limits I thought were possible. It had opportunities that are associated with other 'typical' college experiences like sporting camaraderie.

I left my home not knowing a single soul at the school and left with more family than I can count. That's not to say that can't happen elsewhere. It does. But the closeness and affiliation I observe by many other friends I know from other Midwestern schools isn't nearly as strong. And I don't think that's by accident, in fact I think it's rather common. But I don't many other schools combine and blend the academic, social, competitive, and spiritual part of college the way Notre Dame does. You can find schools that have greater features than ND, but not many who bring it all together.

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Mostly just a football fan now. The lack of humility and

by Buck Mulligan, Martello Tower, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:06 @ Mike (bart)

self-awareness of ND and its folks is increasing, and increasingly disappointing.

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for my part

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 11:55 @ Mike (bart)

The aspects of Notre Dame that I value more and more are encapsulated in the "Fighting For" series, and specifically in the Catholic social justice formation imparted by the institution, this idea that we are not just here for self-advancement, but to make the world a better place. I don't think I see that often enough as a integrated part of the mission from other institutions of higher learning. I think that's a differentiator and I take a lot of pride in that. I also like following its football team.

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I have no problem with that distinction

by Greg, the 'Dena, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 10:12 @ Mike (bart)

As I said, the "magic" (sappy or schmaltzy though it may seem) is in what was and -- because I haven't been on campus in an uncomfortably long time -- may not be there any more.

Let's talk about things that were one way during "becoming" and are now changed. Little things: the driveways in the main quad used to be blacktop so they could be more easily repaired each spring and when tree roots got up under them, today they're very nice and ornamental. I remember the year when US News came out and we were finally ranked ahead of Georgetown. I think the mart in the Huddle sold a hundred or more copies of that magazine because it felt so good to look at it and see that we were the top Catholic university. Today, that's kind of taken for granted.

I've talked often with people out here about whether we'd send our kids to ND if they even were able to get in. The answer is usually yes. But there's also a desire that our kids have an experience like our own, and a realization that ND wouldn't offer that. Places like Gonzaga, Villanova, and even Portland are discussed as schools that are in that growth mode (albeit without galvanizing football games) and that may provide some of that same energy and "magic."

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#asshat

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I don't have much of an opinion about either thing

by Mike (bart), Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 09:19 @ KGB

other than the fact that I think ND is prohibitively expensive and spends money with the profligacy of any other university, which is a bummer.

I don't think the bellyaching is necessarily built out of animosity towards ND so much as it is the fact that ND tends to be the highest gravity institution in the lives and circles of many ND alumni, and picking a fight/declaring disappointment in the highest point of prevailing local gravity usually seems like a good way to sound intelligent and perceptive.

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Maybe there's a difference

by Buffalo @, The Dirty South, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:46 @ KGB

between "blame" and "held responsible."

Some very well-intentioned people I know believe that no one was ever really held responsible -- i.e., suffered any ostensible, negative consequences -- for Sullivan's death. Several I know in that group think that Kelly is otherwise a good coach. I think even those people would agree that it was an accident, but they believe that under the circumstances, it was an avoidable one. I won't re-hash all the reasons why.

It's an emotional issue. That's why you say "fuck those people," and they say "Kelly's the guy in charge, and really he paid no price for a life-altering mistake." To each his own, but I do think it is unfair to say "fuck them."

I am in the camp that says if the Sullivan's can find it in their hearts to forgive Kelly, Swarbrick, and the University, then so can I. But I understand those who cannot.

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some experience in industrial safety

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:20 @ Buffalo

Some commentary from that period as to why oftentimes no one gets fired in industrial accidents, especially when lack of procedure is the true culprit.

http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=56324

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a bit more

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:29 @ Jay

I agree that those are some of the reasons given

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:10 @ Buffalo

[ No text ]

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There's been an element that's hated him from the start

by Coach Gillespie, Omaha, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 11:32 @ Jay
edited by Coach Gillespie, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 11:36

There are many people - mostly posters on various ND sites - who have said for seven years that Brian Kelly is an asshole. That much we know.

What's interesting to me is that these posters generally say "He really seems like a dick" or "He seems arrogant." Their opinion is supported by a demeanor they witness in press conferences.

I've yet to hear a follow up story outlining times when Kelly was a bad tipper or berated a Ruth's Chris waiter or refused to take a picture with an old alum. You heard many of these "I met the guy once and he really is a dick" stories about Weis. All the time. But unless I'm not as plugged into the ND Football Internet-scape as I think I am, these stories don't exist.

Personally, Kelly looks and sounds like my uncle. And I like my uncle.

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If you assume the very worst about Kelly as a person...

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:47 @ Coach Gillespie

at the very least, unlike his predecessor, he understood from Day One that being the head coach at ND makes you a public figure and that you need to behave accordingly. Even if he immediately walks away and pulls a David Simms from Tin Cup, he understands that, in the moment, he's "on the job" when someone comes up to shake his hand or wish him well. At a bare minimum, Kelly understands it's in his best interests to smile and shake hands and say thank you for the well-wishes.

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Ill admit

by Mark, Cloud City, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 16:07 @ Coach Gillespie
edited by Mark, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 16:10

I was definitely in the "I'm not so sure about this guy" camp when he was hired and even through the first couple of seasons ...

But, now ... I kind of like that grouchy guy and I hope he can make it through this.

He's got a decent sense of humor and he has a much better understanding of ND's pain in the ass hoops now. I certainly dont think he forgot how to coach after having done it so well. I just dont think ND can find a better coach very easily and BK definitely has the potential to coach/lead ND to be an elite team, even if its not every season.

I still believe this team will be pretty awesome once they stop playing mostly freshman/redshirt freshman. If they were playing those guys because they were 5 star football freaks I would see it quite differently, but ND's frosh/redshirt freshman are in there early bc ND doesn't have the depth of an over-recruitted team like tOSU or Bama.

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"After more than a decade of sub-par red zone TD efficiency... wait ... what? ... Hold on!"

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Good stuff

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 18:48 @ Mark

But, now ... I kind of like that grouchy guy and I hope he can make it through this.

Agree. I know guys like that, and they piss me off sometimes but they're generally likeable.

He's got a decent sense of humor and he has a much better understanding of ND's pain in the ass hoops now. I certainly dont think he forgot how to coach after having done it so well. I just dont think ND can find a better coach very easily and BK definitely has the potential to coach/lead ND to be an elite team, even if its not every season.

Good points. The next guy, whomever he is, will have to learn the ropes and may not deal with the institutional crap the way that politician Kelly has learned to do. And I think you're dead-on right about the up-and-down/elite-OK-elite nature of what Kelly can do, but I wonder what coach that can deal with the ND crap without his head exploding can get better (or more consistent, I guess) on-field results.

I still believe this team will be pretty awesome once they stop playing mostly freshman/redshirt freshman. If they were playing those guys because they were 5 star football freaks I would see it quite differently, but ND's frosh/redshirt freshman are in there early bc ND doesn't have the depth of an over-recruitted team like tOSU or Bama.

I wish I shared your optimism. Maybe if Swarbrick does think this year should be a mulligan, and Kelly does bring in a decent college DC, you'll be proven right. Wouldn't that be great for all of us? Here's to your vision, dude [drinks].

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#asshat

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There's a bunch of really good football players on this team

by Jeremy (WeIsND), Offices of Babip Pecota Vorp & Eckstein, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 19:49 @ Greg

Which has to explain so much of the frustration on Kelly's part. Sure, some of these kids are really young. But that's part of the fun, or should be, for a college coach.

I'd think Swarbrick knows that there's enough talent on the roster (even with some of the recruiting holes in previous classes) to win a bunch of games over the next few years. I imagine he's going to be very wary of making the Big Change right now.

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Good point, and I could see that point of view from JS.

by Greg, the 'Dena, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 07:57 @ Jeremy (WeIsND)

[ No text ]

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#asshat

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Some people apparently want to go to prom with their coach.

by KGB, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:22 @ Coach Gillespie

I have no f-ckin' use for that whatsoever.

1. Does he win games?

2. Does he accomplish #1 while upholding ND's standards regarding conduct, academics, et al?

In the end, I don't give a frog's fat ass about much else. This includes in particular what he says at the press conferences, because he's a football coach and not the fecking Democratic nominee for Senate from Idaho. The parsing of transcripts -- Jesus Christ on a hoverboard, years and years of transcripts -- is as pointless as it is exhausting.

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Agreed, and I don't need a mea culpa from Kelly

by HCE, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:58 @ KGB

when he loses. I hated the gameplan on Saturday, but I don't care if he defends it or denounces it in his presser. That changes nothing, and the actual coaching doesn't happen in front of reporters. He can save the hair-shirts and scarlet letters for private. Just beat Stanford.

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He has a fine reputation in town. Nobody has a bad thing to

by Buck Mulligan, Martello Tower, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:19 @ Coach Gillespie

say about personal interactions with him.

Weis was the opposite. Nobody had a good thing to say, even before the bottom fell out.

Willingham was well-liked from a personality standpoint.

Davie, contrary to perception, was I think generally perceived as a decent guy in local dealings, hot dog story notwithstanding.

Lou was fantastic.

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Some day, I want to work for 7/11's marketing department

by Coach Gillespie, Omaha, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 12:57 @ Buck Mulligan

And I want to help launch a campaign for the 7/11 hot dog. And I want to make Bob Davie the spokesman.

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I am not familiar with the Davie story--care to elaborate?

by Jim (OFD) @, Naptown, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 06:33 @ Coach Gillespie

[ No text ]

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I don't eat at 7/11. But I would, once, if you did that.

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 13:02 @ Coach Gillespie

[ No text ]

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#asshat

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It's human nature and applies beyond sports

by Flann, Central New Jersey, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:38 @ Jay

It's not enough to be wrong or inept; the opponent, adversary or object of criticism is a bad person.

Michael Lewis has a quote in one of his books about how people look at success or lack of success in finance which I couldn't find, but I'll paraphrase: People confuse luck with skill and both with character.

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Especially these days

by Jack @, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 11:29 @ Flann

I can't wait to hear Finebaum describe Kelly as "the devil".

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He smells like sulfur

by Bill, Southern California, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 19:43 @ Jack

[ No text ]

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good quote

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:56 @ Flann

The inverse of this is when there actually are serious moral issues at stake, but they are glossed over or ignored because we're winning games. Examples abound, from Penn State to Baylor and so on.

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The more you demonize him, the easier it is to fire him

by Domer99, John Wesley Powell's Expedition Island, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:38 @ Jay

And it's pretty damn easy to demonize somebody you don't know.

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Contrast that to Faust

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:37 @ Jay

Faust's story was that he was a great guy, but was in over his head at ND and possibly as a college coach anywhere. But, the character assassination wasn't there. I suspect that is just a sign of the times.

---
At night, the ice weasels come.

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In MT's defense

by jcocktoaston, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:29 @ Jay

I think he was quoting me at the time.

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it's all good

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:31 @ jcocktoaston

That was just one example I happened to be personally involved with.

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To qoute one of you gents from a blog past

by jcocktoaston, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:42 @ Jay

I was shaking my fist in the air, mad in every sense of the word.

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Agreed.

by PMan, The Banks of the Spokane River, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:21 @ Jay

But hopefully Kelly is tuning it all out (like Pete Sampson's blog). And I imagine Swarbrick to be too smart to let it matter much to him.

The only real impact place the demonizing issue might take hold would be in recruiting.

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I don't think it has any real impact either

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:30 @ PMan

It's just sort of embarrassing and unnecessary. It's spleen venting. I get the emotion from the angle of needing some scream therapy from time to time, but when it gets channeled into smears I think it's dumb.

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For the media at large, it's clickbait

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:21 @ Jay

I think Finebaum is a little different - he basically has a collection of SEC coaches' hands up his ass moving his mouth. I get his character assassination; the coaches who control him want to make ND seem to be the most terrible place a kid could possibly be.

This from Wiltfong yesterday, in a thread where Finebaum's "miserable person" critique came up:

"Finebaum doesn't know shit about ND football."
"He talked a lot of shit about Harbaugh in the preseason too as a mouthpiece for his SEC sources."

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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Brian Kelly burned my steak last night

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:17 @ Jay
edited by Greg, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:24

He should know I like it medium rare, not medium well!

It's intellectually weak to play amateur psychologist and/or attempt to destroy a person's character just because you don't like their policies or their offense or the way they do their job. Attack them based on results.

It's also hilarious that somebody can be called both a master manipulator and an incompetent nincompoop.

But it's not just sports these days -- it's politics too. Blame the 24-hour news cycle and the rise of social media as nonstop fora where the more outlandish the claim the more it takes hold.

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#asshat

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It's easy and steers the narrative.

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:52 @ Jay

[ No text ]

---
"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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And while hunting for presser updates...found this.

by Chris @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 09:44 @ Chris

Donovan is the only Jeter I now have a use for.

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"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

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I like that kid more every day

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 10:23 @ Chris

[ No text ]

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Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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