#Big Picture -- feel free to add here.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 11:51 (3718 days ago)

ND's five biggest advantages and limitations.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=8712;d=all

Tags:
big picture

Biggest limitation

by Eric M, Western New York, Friday, December 05, 2014, 18:02 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Eric M, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:55

Distractions.

Maybe that's too broad, and combines several limitations under one umbrella, but I'm sure ND football players lead the nation by a wide margin with all the distractions they face.

Obviously, the academics are a major part of that distraction. Not only in the work being difficult (and more difficult than generations past) but also in the sense of a smarter student body co-mingling and interacting with football players thus adding further distractions from football.

When you recruit for the 40-year plan you're basically admitting to the distractions involved with juggling football and classwork, right?

We're fighting an uphill battle here when 95% of the country is not. Perhaps a program like Stanford is dealing with it as well, but then we haven't added in ND's other distractions that create another layer that Cardinal players don't deal with nearly as much.

Throw in the weight of tradition, the pomp and circumstance of football weekends, the hyper media blitz, games all over the country in different locales and weather, and players from all over the country.

How many television interviews/segments/promo shots did Golson tape this year? More than Mariota? More than any other QB in the country? EG could have been going through a normal routine preparing for Purdue but instead he's getting a travel itinerary for the trip to Indianapolis and by the way can you come tape some stuff for the jumbotron for about 30 minutes that we'll show during halftime?

We absolutely lead the country in the relationship between distractions and winning being out of whack. It's one thing to be an Alabama and have to deal with all the noise that surrounds the program because of dominating. But there are even more distractions for a 7-5 Irish team.

We can talk about institutional commitment and lengthening the leash on admissions or hiring the unquestioned best coach in the country. These would help a lot. But the former brings its own problems once kids are on campus and even the greatest coach will only be around for a decade or so. Then what?

And what if we hired Saban right now? Does anyone think these distractions wouldn't drive him up a wall? There's been plenty of push back in the past in changing some game weekend activities (moving Mass to Friday, for example) so does anyone think Saban wouldn't take a machine gun to a lot of the way things are run today? Are we cool with that because he's a proven elite coach? Is that hypocritical of us? Are we making it harder on ourselves now than we should be?

It's just tough, man. I can't sit here and tell anyone Corey Robinson isn't an amazing human being. I'm assuming he was with the players that were doing charity work today for Kelly Cares and now he's probably simultaneously working through a ukulele masterpiece while reviewing KeiVarae's poetry over Skype. I also can't tell anyone that he's as viciously hungry to succeed on the football field as the backup defensive end at LSU. Corey's just got a lot more going on in his life, including his tall ass super famous dad with family in tow hanging around at every game.

This stuff runs deep and honestly there aren't any easy answers and solutions. The explosion of personal technology is a distraction for players all across the country but even that is probably magnified more at ND where the players can interact more with students, meet more students, find new interests outside football, etc.

Some might say that other schools offer major distractions in the form of nightlife. True, but it's not like ND doesn't have some of those avenues too. And in a weird way, I think wildin' out with your boys at the bar or club is a good form of team bonding that offers minimal distractions most of the time.

IMO, the biggest problem for ND is getting the team to focus at a high level every single week during the season. And to try and to string together multiple seasons of that high level of focus? I can't even imagine how much of a challenge this is for the coaching staff.

In reality we have to be more focused than the Alabama's of the world in order to make up for the academic side of things and to me that's an enormous and constant struggle. Some may say a Saban or Meyer would have the team ultimately focused, and I might agree, but there's also a chance all the distractions drive them mad and makes them burn out rather quickly. And then who do we blame? We know the administration won't budge on some issues and most of us want it that way. But there also seems to be a "let them do what they want, to a certain point" card ready for Meyer, Saban, and Stoops only. Maybe that's fair, I don't know. I just wonder if Meyer coached here and burned out Leahy-style after 4 years how we'd react to the fate of the program.

--
-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

Tags:
big picture

bravo!

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:36 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

I remember Manti mentioning that the whole Heisman circuit made it really challenging to maintain his conditioning and affected his game prep. Wonder if that might not happen in minature.

A+

by Pat (Moco), Bar, Urban Chophouse Short North, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:00 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

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Thought-provoking. Thanks Eric!

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 08:32 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

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--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

if you think about it, it's amazing we've won as much

by Jay @, San Diego, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 08:17 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

as we have. You might say the most amazing achievement in the last twenty years in college football was not USC's run or the ongoing Alabama dynasty, it's the fact that the #1 team in terms of academic merit actually managed to go undefeated and play for the national championship.

As others have mentioned below, start with the fact that a good percentage of the top say, 200 high school players in the country can't even walk through our doors.

Then, once you've got a class together, having looked in every nook and cranny of the country to assemble it, you put them into this rigorous curriculum and class schedule. Then you pile on all those other demands (media, service, traditions) special to ND that you are talking about. Oh, and then you make it so you MUST graduate in four years to even think about a fifth.

And finally, on top of all that you're expected to play high caliber, championship football, and beat all the other football teams who are unshackled of the same restrictions that you place upon yourself.

For all of Brian Kelly's fault...

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:04 (3717 days ago) @ Jay

Does anyone think he would have trouble winning big at Ohio State, Florida, Texas, etc?

Now: Maybe; 5 years ago: Yes

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 13:15 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

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Yes.

by Ken Fowler, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:53 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

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Fair enough.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:29 (3717 days ago) @ Ken Fowler

Dude has two 12-0 undefeated regular seasons, one Top 5, two Top 10, five top 25 seasons, 3 BCS bids, a winning percentage of .748 and an average 9.6 wins a year over the last eight years. To each his own, I guess.

Well what do you mean by "win big"? .748 isn't winning big

by Ken Fowler, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:34 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

At least not what I thought you meant, which is regularly in the top-10, and almost always in the top-15.

And one BCS/NY6 appearance in 5 years isn't winning big at ND. The two other appearances were as the winner of a down Big East.

His offense has never shown itself to be consistently proficient against Power 5 defenses. The one year he excelled at Notre Dame was when he deviated the most from his offensive philosophy. He's got an immense amount of skill on offense here, in year 5, and the offense still isn't particularly impressive.

I just could not imagine him regularly competing for SEC titles. Maybe in the Big Ten.

Fine.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:45 (3717 days ago) @ Ken Fowler
edited by FunkDoctorSpock, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:48

Let's put it this way:

He has the best season in Cincinnati history, the best two year, and th the best three year stretch.

He is responsible for one of three undefeated regular seasons at Notre Dame since 1973.

He is one of three active college head coaches (along with Saban and Meyer) to have undefeated regular seasons at multiple programs.

In the last three years his program has been among the Top 5 in terms of players chosen in the NFL draft.

So, taking all of that into consideration, yes, I think it's reasonable to extrapolate winning at the level you suggest at a place like Texas, Florida State, Miami, Florida, Ohio State, etc.

You seem angry about this

by Ken Fowler, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:51 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

He's 44-20 at Notre Dame. One season in five with fewer than 4 loses. 2012 was great. But he hasn't proven he can sustain it.

Kelly never had a Power 5 job before coming to Notre Dame. And while at ND, he's finished NR, NR, No. 4, No. 24, NR.

I think it's at least within reason to doubt whether he could go into the SEC and consistently field a top-10/top-15 team.

Not angry at all.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:57 (3717 days ago) @ Ken Fowler
edited by FunkDoctorSpock, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 11:01

I apologize if it reads that way. I'm of the mind that it is easier to win consistently at those other programs. I think it is reasonable to wonder if Meyer or Saban would be able to win as your describe at ND or whether they would even be willing or able to stay for five years given the restrictions and limitations mentioned in Eric's post. That's all.

I also replied based on reading the pre-edit

by Ken Fowler, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 11:00 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

So that could be my fault. No need to apologize.

I think Kelly has proven to be a very, very good program coach. There's a lot of talent coming in and coming out of Notre Dame right now. But, on the whole, I don't think the results haven't matched that yet. And my concern/bias/belief is that there is probably something about the offense that makes it good-not-great when going up against high-talent defenses.

I could be right, and I could be wrong. I just think it's fair for someone to doubt Kelly at Florida/Texas/OSU, just as it's fair for others not to.

Well then, in that regard, we agree.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 11:03 (3717 days ago) @ Ken Fowler

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I think it's possible but we just don't know

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:47 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

Personally, I feel like Kelly's ceiling is more akin to what Pinkel is doing at Missouri or RR at Arizona. He's a very, very, very good David. Not Goliath.

Of course.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:49 (3717 days ago) @ HumanRobot
edited by FunkDoctorSpock, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 10:56

There's obviously no way of being certain. But as of today, given his resume, his hiring at any one of those schools would objectively be seen as a home run hire.

And, personally, I think a comparison to Pinkel is a compliment. Since 2007 his teams are 75-30 and have won at least ten games five times. Do I think that is enough to think Pinkel could do even better at, say, Oklahoma or Texas or SC if he ever made that switch? Yes

I bet he'd be successful at other schools

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 09:42 (3717 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock

I wonder *how* successful he'd be at OSU or Texas, but I have no doubt he'd have no worse than a Richt like run at those places.

Great post. And I'd add

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 07:43 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

how many scholarship players does ND have on its roster every year who have simply used their football playing ability to secure themselves a scholarship to a great school and don't necessarily have a 'football is everything' outlook on life?

I think you touch on that in some regards with your Corey Robinson comments, but Corey seems to still put his whole self into his football endeavors. How many players are like Corey, but only put half of themselves into their football endeavors and what impact does that have on team performance?

Contrast that with other schools where players go to play football. In a large number of cases, that's the only thing they've got going for them so they put their whole selves into football every minute of every day.

Do ND players have different soscio-economic backgrounds

by Flann, Central New Jersey, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 11:02 (3717 days ago) @ Bill

in the aggregate as compared to other major football schools?

Would it matter if they did?

We're all aware of individual Notre Dame players who grew up in difficult circumstances and players who grew up wealthy, but I'm not sure how it compares to other teams.

I can buy that. Good post.

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 06:23 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

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Wonderful post!

by Geoff, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 06:19 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

I had never thought about it in these terms, but I agree.

ND wants to develop complete people -- not just complete football players. That mission, something I support, can limit the talent pool. Jimmy Johnson once told his players that they came to Miami to play football. If they wanted an education, they should go to Harvard. How often have opposing coaches used ND's quality education to scare away potential recruits? What about punishing bad behavior? The Marooned Five wallowed in exile for cheating. The F$U administration and head coach enable sociopathic behavior if it will help them win games.

One other point I want to mention is the polarizing effect of ND. I'm sure Anti-Catholic bias plays a role, but I don't know how that can be quantified. The moment a player commits to ND or a coach is hired, he is immediately hated by a large number of people. Yes, Sabama fans hate Auburn and Oregon fans hate Oregon State, but these hatreds are usually regional and compartmentalized. People all across the country hate ND simply because ND is ND. Then add the ingredient of vitriol certain ND fans have about their own school and football program.

Who the hell would want to sign up for all this misery?

YUP.

by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 06:00 (3717 days ago) @ Eric M

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Excellent.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 21:19 (3718 days ago) @ Eric M

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Very good.

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Friday, December 05, 2014, 18:05 (3718 days ago) @ Eric M

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final question before I go drinking

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:45 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

Is there a savior in the ND-verse somewhere?

Is there a Wexner who will more or less hand deliver an Urban Meyer?

Is there a Mal Moore type who can go through a dragged out search, talking to Saban, Rodriguez, Fisher, and finally Saban again?

Is there a Harbaugh/Miles who are actual coaches at the top of the field with an ardent love for the school? Hell, even a Sarkisian?

I don't think so. I don't think we have a 'man of chest' or whatever the hell that was that somebody wrote once that's going to get super mad, say 'fuck this shit' and get ND back on the straight and narrow.

Your last sentence is what Brian Kelly really wants to be

by CK08, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:49 (3718 days ago) @ HumanRobot

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Something I've wondered about

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:20 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

Is being an independent a negative?

When we lose a game, that's pretty much it for us, as our independence pretty much sets us up for "National Championship or bust" status. So at the end of the season, we don't have any concrete goals other than "hey lets win this game because it's good to win!" Conference championships, conference awards, etc, are great motivators...but we don't have that.

This may sound like blasphemy

by CK08, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:50 (3718 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

but I kind of envy schools that have those secondary goals.

Would our season have fallen apart so badly if we were still in the hunt for the ACC Coastal Division after our loss to Arizona State?

It's probably not worth giving up independence, but I can see the appeal.

I think it's both

by Greg, seemingly ranch, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:35 (3718 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)

We know the positives -- truly national program; attention; money; etc.

The negative is what you said: people can say that ND "hasn't won anything in "X" years" and because there is only one thing that ND can win -- the whole frigging thing -- they are right. We can go 11-1 or 10-2, and in many conferences that would be a Conference Championship but for us it's "didn't win." We can go 8-4 and in some conferences that would be a Division Championship and a spot in the title game with a shot at a Conference Championship but for us it's "didn't win and maybe we should fire the coach."

So I think there is some negative to it; with no hierarchy of on-field goals that provide tangible results, it's easy to say "we've not won since 1988." And that's a bad mindset to be in.

--
The 2007 ND-UCLA game was a once in a lifetime experience, I hope

here's a question

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:55 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

Let's say the same Randy Moss were 18 today. Would he want to come to ND with the undying passion he apparently had in 1994?

I think so.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:03 (3718 days ago) @ HumanRobot

Moss might like ND more now. He's an old soul, who sometimes did very childish things.

I've heard Snoop's kid is genuinely interested in ND. Maybe if Moss's kid (Thaddeus) gets an offer, we'll get to see what the new generation of Mosses thinks of us.

I think our fanbase is a disadvantage.

by Pat (Moco), Bar, Urban Chophouse Short North, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:46 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

We expect perfection and if it is not provided promptly, we call for immediate replacements. We assume that every coach is available for hire, from the high school coach in Ohio to the corpse of Knute Rockne. We live in the past and expect that because past coaches were successful in X amount of time, then our current coach should be. We think that because running the ball won us national championships, we should be doing so all of the time now. We ignore adaptations and changes in offenses and defenses over time. We have past heroes, like Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, Holtz, and are constantly looking for He Who Can Be Them. We will never be happy. Any man who takes the job will be the most hated man in America because of us.

If ndn didn't fire TyWill, ndn didn't bother anybody.

by Ken Fowler, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:32 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

But ndn fired TyWill, so the point is mute.

I like mute points

by Jack @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:34 (3718 days ago) @ Ken Fowler

But I have a hard time hearing them.

Better than a moo point

by CK08, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:48 (3718 days ago) @ Jack

That's just a cow's opinion.

Amazing.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:17 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

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Oh, I don't think our fanbase is all that different

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:10 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

from most other 'elite' programs. Do you think that we're all that different than Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, Texas, Oklahoma, etc.? I don't. They're equally cuckoo.

Agreed.

by Rob (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, Friday, December 05, 2014, 17:59 (3718 days ago) @ Bill

I think it's also a small (yet vocal) segment of each fanbase that are the real crazies.

Most ND fans (young and all) I know are obviously frustrated, but they aren't the picture Pat paints.

Agree 100%. I don't think we're different at all

by Jack @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:30 (3718 days ago) @ Bill

And it's easily proven by reading their message boards.

Perfect.

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:03 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

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We're roughly Texas Tech in win % over the last 20 years.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:00 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

I'm sure Texas Tech still supports what, ten regularly trafficked fan sites and has sold out every single game during that time. Texas Tech is probably lining up its own TV contract now, and I bet this'll be another year where Texas Tech lucks into some bowl game they don't deserve to be in because someone's following the money.

There are many, many rungs between where we're at and where this dastardly fanbase wants us to be.

Do I read this correctly?

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:07 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

$300 for a season ticket in the upper level, 50 yard-line, at Texas Tech?

Good luck getting our asshole fans to go for something like that.

http://www.texastech.com/manual/graphics/pdfs/2014TicketsMap_NoDifference.jpeg

Answer: it's Lubbock, Texas

by Jack @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:33 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin
edited by Jack, Friday, December 05, 2014, 14:37

They are the only game in town for a 300 mile radius.

What's this "our asshole fans" thing? Do you know what season ticket holders have to pay at ND? And not for seats on the 50?

Answer

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 16:08 (3718 days ago) @ Jack

Hey!

by Jack @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 16:40 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

Occasionally I want to make sure I'm on the right board.

also

by Jay @, San Diego, Friday, December 05, 2014, 17:20 (3718 days ago) @ Jack

You know I'm just giving you a hard time, right? We all have our foibles.

I have to admit, however, that I chuckled when I did a board search for "crying out loud" and about forty of your posts came up.

I want to let you know we're laying down some Jack rules

by Jay @, San Diego, Friday, December 05, 2014, 16:48 (3718 days ago) @ Jack

for the new year. So you've got a couple weeks to prepare.

* shall not post "for crying out loud"

* shall not post a sentence in the negative followed by the two word utterance, "At all."

* must fact check proclamations before posting. If found in violation we'll have some kind of appropriate punishment.

* must not scold

* must review post for shrillness in tone and reduce shrill if necessary before hitting Submit

For #3, because of Kevin

by Pat (Moco), Bar, Urban Chophouse Short North, Friday, December 05, 2014, 17:03 (3718 days ago) @ Jay

Are stabbings the preferred method of punishment now?

I sure hope so.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Friday, December 05, 2014, 17:31 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

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I got stabbed in Calcutta once. Kevin saved my life

by Jay @, San Diego, Friday, December 05, 2014, 17:28 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

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I wish I ruled half as much as Pagoda.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 21:18 (3718 days ago) @ Jay

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bravo

by Supe ⌂, VA, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:58 (3718 days ago) @ Pat (Moco)

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Is being a Catholic institution a disadvantage?

by Grantland, y'allywood, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:11 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

And did it used to be an advantage?

Jesus was a football player

by Jay @, San Diego, Friday, December 05, 2014, 15:41 (3718 days ago) @ Grantland

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I thought He was a futbol player.

by Grantland, y'allywood, Saturday, December 06, 2014, 06:40 (3717 days ago) @ Jay

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I know coaches will explicitly lie about it.

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:24 (3718 days ago) @ Grantland

"You have to be catholic to go there, they make you go to church," that kind of thing. It may spook the occasional kid from a predominantly African American Protestant church.

It can be both.

by Kevin @, Friday, December 05, 2014, 13:13 (3718 days ago) @ Grantland

I think it was much more of a strength before USC beat Alabama in 1970.

What does 'lack of institutional commitment" mean?

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Friday, December 05, 2014, 12:34 (3718 days ago) @ Kevin

I always see this mentioned, but I seldom see any details about what the University should do to show their commitment.

I think you could put "