is about our institutional ceiling, to be honest.

I've long ago disabused myself of the notion that ND is going to look like Alabama, Oregon, et al. where we are calling 10-2 a "bad year". In the era of parity, you either need to be willing to bend the rules to their breaking point (or break them, probably), or settle for the idea that you are going to be pretty good most years and hope you can catch lighting in a bottle with the right players at the right time.

So when I wonder if 9-3 is good enough for Kelly, I'd say that the record itself is fine. But that's much too superficial. The question is how did we get to 9-3. If he continues to be good for losses like NW, then I would take issue even if the end result is always 9-3.

point out that there are major similarities to the Devine era, with the notable exception that we did win the '77 NC.

But he was 8-3,9-3,11-1,9-3,7-4,9-2-1.

You could argue that those 3 loss years were a lot like Kelly's 4 loss years, as there was one less game, and especially in the minds of fans that Ara never lost 3 games in a season.

And then there was year 5, when we were 7-4. Why did the team fall to 7-4 that year? Because a horde of great defensive players had graduated: Jay Case, Jeff Weston, Mike Calhoun, Steve Heimkreiter, Bob Golic, Tom Gibbons, Jim Browner and Joe Restic - 8 starters all gone at once, of which 7 had been starting for at least 2 years. In '79 therefore we had a very, very young inexperienced defense that gave up 197 points, which back then was a lot.

But the following year that defense really clicked, included a shutout of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, and only yielded 128 points including the bowl game. The defense in fact carried that team and was really one of the great ND defenses in the last 50 years.

We've had turnovers two of the last 3 games that really hurt, but the fact of the matter is that the problem has been the defense. Everyone harps on the playcalling, but other than the first half on Saturday against maybe the best defense we played all year, seems to me we've been moving the ball pretty darn well and scoring a lot of points. We scored 40 on Northwestern, and if not for the turnovers could have been 54. Can I get a show of hands of how many people here thought we'd lose to Northwestern in a game where we scored 40 points?

I agree with everyone saying we've got to win big next year. Barring a host of injuries I don't see any excuses. But I think people need to breathe a bit on this year. We are as thin as boarding house soap on defense, and it keeps getting worse. Experience will help those young players in the long run, but it's sure painful to watch right now.

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to make the trip and literally do it myself. And next year, we'll finish off the year in Northern California and I won't want to make the trip if we suck.

I guess I'll know it when I see it.

I recorded the Louisville game rather than watching it live--that's a first for me in a long time. If we had won, I would have watched the recording. I'll do the same for USC. If we finish 7-5 and go to the bowl game in Orlando, I'm not even going to go. That's how down I've become. It feels more like indifference than depression, though. Fair weather fan? After so many years of following ND, I don't think so. We've just been mediocre for so long now that it's not worth the emotional investment.

I have been a BK supporter from the beginning, but next year is year 6 of his tenure, and I expect great things to start happening (i.e., at least a playoff berth). In my opinion, the program should be at a high level by now and sustain it, rather than these fairly large ups and downs. So if we flounder next year, then I think I'll be off the bandwagon.

Or...are we all dreaming that ND can still compete for national titles? The talent is in the South and West, and it's hard to attract great players to ND, and even more so it seems without following the "SEC" model of semi-pro ball and bag men. Thoughts?

The loss to Michigan in 2011 dropped BK to 8-7 at ND.

Heading into last years Pitt game ND had gone 27-6 in our games since that brutal loss in Ann Arbor. It included an undefeated regular season and our first Top 5 finish since 1993.

Starting with last year's loss to Pitt we have gone 9-6.

Is another run like that around the corner? Hell, I can't say for sure. But I wouldn't discount the possibility.

How in the hey did you happen to spend the weekend hanging out with Charles Oakley?

And who are the 2 or 3 people besides maybe Michael Jordan that he doesn't think are soft?

And when he got vodka thrown in his face, did your buddy say to him "You insensitive prick! Do you have any idea how much that stings?"

It's not my favorite city by a longshot, but the story you described could probably only ever happen in Miami (other than Vegas, but literally anything could happen in Vegas, so it's not really worth mentioning).

How did you end up tagged with Oakley in the first place?

Awesome.

Thanks for sharing - that's a great story.

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I'd be surprised if there aren't multiple staff changes after the season. Not that this is an earth-shattering prediction in the wake of a 4- or 5-loss season, but our turnover to this point under BK has been well below-average, I suspect.

but we aren't getting the job done right now, so we are in a position where we have to consider increasing our appetite for risk. We need to get more reward out of this offense!

What Bart said.

the season is in full-on disaster mode. It's never a desirable thing to be having earnest conversations about benching your starting QB in November, but when shit isn't working sometimes you've got to get weird.

Somebody on NDN suggested Koyack should literally deck Kelly for yelling at him for missing a block against Purdue. Of course, I'm sure Carlisle who got killed on the play was probably pissed and probably appreciated Kelly disciplining Koyack.

I never know how these dynamics play out.