best of the turf debates

October, 2009: Spesh becomes the first person to bring up field turf on TPG:
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=5341

another thread on the state of the field, circa late 2009
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=9578

November, 2010, an early variation on what will become the Field Turf insta-thread, replayed dozens of times over the next few years (includes a rare reference to the "Sodfather")
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=36425

April, 2011: Kevin polls the polletariat, and finds Field Turf registers nearly nil among a host of other Concerns:
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=53371

June 30, 2011: Frank drops a Tradition Bomb:
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=57710

August, 2013: Kelly trolls the fan base
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=104643

also August, 2013: Slainte bitchslaps millenials and geezers alike:
http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=104733

locked

3089 views

changes to the old "traditions" important or not, good or bad.

- Hats with shamrocks;
- Hats that were not all gold;
- x-roads;
- early enrollees;
- training table;
- luxury boxes;
- turf.

One by itself does not bother me. But is seems like the cumulative effect is getting on my nerves.

Not a judgment just an observation.

locked

2743 views

specific things when my real point was there have been lots of changes. To each one I have thought to myself, change is good, that will bring us into the modern day.

The turf gets on my nerves more than the other minor/little changes. I think it is because it comes on the heels of the luxury boxes, early enrolls, the ND Football Stadium/Arts/PE/music/lafortuneplex, etc.

I ain't burning my diploma or anything, just that there has been a lot of change for an old guy. It is probably good, but I am having a little nostalgic moment here and all you youngins (and oldens) are busting my balls.

I just need a damn hug.

locked

2576 views

- No text -

locked

2592 views

For me, it's less an issue with Notre Dame as much as what it seems to take to compete in college football. Are there any successful programs out there that don't do a training table or have early enrollees?

locked

2624 views

Notre Dame never was an institution of Tradition. I don't think this was ever a place -- at least when it's at its best -- that looks to the past for answers. When you look back closely enough through the lens of history, you realize how much the school transformed in response to the world and the world in response to ND, be it on matters of race, gender, uniform colors, team travel, education, etc. Notre Dame isn't wonderful because it's the same as it was in the 20 or 50 or 100 years ago. It's wonderful because it isn't.

I always feel like 'tradition' is some attempt to lock the school in the Reagan era. Have we ever established the real lifetime on the players mass/walk? Painting the helmets? The helmet raise? The post game alma mater sway? The mums? The white lines on the field? These are things that have been happening for a while, but that gets conflated to 'always'.

I've tried to say it before, but if there's anything that's a Tradition at Notre Dame, it's excellence, innovation, but most importantly it's Catholic character.

Tags:
potpourri, tradition

locked

2925 views

And most of the things I think twice about are in light of whether or not it is in line with the Catholic Character or, if not, is it that big of a deal? I think the same thought process but a lot more of it goes on with the actual decisions makers.

These are off the top of my head and are not meant as my final opinion (as I said, I ain't burning my diploma) and they are also snippets and examples (not the entire idea) of my thought processes:

Training Table, "breaking bread" with the ND Family (I really do not feel it is a huge huge deal but a consideration);
Luxury Boxes, I can't remember but it may have been Port who best described it in relation to whether or not it is "Catholic";
EE - the kids getting ahead of themselves - wanting to grow up too fast;

Oversigning - what do we do to the kids who don't make it;

Athletic Dorms - extreme example that will never happen.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as the discussion seems to have implied, otherwise all of this would have happened long ago.

locked

2415 views

- No text -

locked

2433 views

- No text -

locked

2463 views

- No text -

locked

2414 views

It is like the 80s. Blame Reagan for everything!

locked

2478 views

- No text -

locked

2475 views

Stadium for all four years.

And one tradition that has overstayed its welcome by about 20 years is the 1812. It should have been retired with Lou out of respect to him (I know it didn't originate with him). But it's become a cartoon with three terrible coaches since him and now one that is reviled by a decent chunk of the fanbase. Plus, nobody knows what the hell to do with their hands.

locked

2525 views

Not because it was tradition, but because it was understated and elegant and fucking awesome.

locked

2598 views

And I mean that in a good way. I liked it too.

--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

locked

2467 views

- No text -

locked

2438 views

- No text -

locked

2507 views

Harper and Rockne were innovators.

locked

2544 views

Especially when my Alabama fans excuse for the oversigning-bs is, "it's a business bubba, it's a business." I HATE that answer - as true as it may be.

locked

2573 views

- No text -

locked

2553 views

- No text -

locked

2590 views

- No text -

locked

2533 views

Training table and early enrollment has nothing to do with tradition one way or the other.

locked

2637 views

[image]

locked

2553 views

Nutrition and getting players into school and practice a semester early (if they want to do that) are both important in actually putting a winning product on the field.

Also neither one of them hurts ND's mission in any way.

locked

2567 views

- No text -

locked

2594 views

- No text -

locked

2541 views

It is where (to me) the slope could lead - if, as we discussed above, it's just a business and we do what we have to do to make it work.

locked

2529 views

But you can make reasonable and minor accommodations like a training table and early enrollment without greasing the skids for athletic dorms and hooker hostesses.

locked

2615 views

I do not even remember.

locked

2568 views

Notre Dame's mission is to preserve the integrity of the student-athlete as an integral part of the larger university community. Athletic dorms are anathema to that standard. I've never heard *anyone* affiliated with Notre Dame respond to the idea with anything but revulsion.

I suppose it's possible that athletic dorms could become less repugnant if we compromise the standard, but I certainly don't see it as even a remote possibility.

locked

2500 views

- No text -

locked

2441 views

I've never heard of a Notre Dame player or coach in any sport pining for an athletic dorm.

An athletic dorm would be a departure from tradition.

locked

2565 views

Athletic dorms aren't just a departure from our tradition; they are completely contrary to our ethos. We cannot have athletic dorms and remain who we are.

locked

2592 views

was just quoted this weekend saying how much he likes being in a "regular" dorm.

locked

2570 views

We may go 9-3, have a patty cake offense, suck at punt returns and have a purple-hued Shanty mick ND-hatin head coach, but we are the best read mofos in college football!

locked

2498 views

Corey Robinson will quote Erasmus in an on-field interview. And it will work.

--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

locked

2496 views

Ba dum ching!

locked

2421 views

Alex: "What does that mean?"
Corey: "It means THROW ME THE DAMN BALL, COACH!"

--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

locked

2500 views

Plus that would, in fact, be contrary to ND's mission.

locked

2537 views

But it was ND's way and it was different than how most of the rest of the world does things - and now it is not different - or at least not as different.

locked

2645 views

eat with the student body!"

Sure it did.

locked

2599 views

The players all ate together for dinner in the North Dining Hall after practice under Devine, and was called "Training Table". The only time they didn't was when the was no practice during part of second semester, before spring practice started and after the Blue-Gold game.

locked

2592 views

my point but, I know when I was there, we often (once a week maybe - once every two weeks) sat around the Dining Hall shooting the shit. By the time we left the football players were in there with us. On more than one occasion friends on the team "snuck" us whatever they were eating. Then we would go screw around with them, or study or whatever. Can they even do that now? It really sounds stupid, but I think it made them more a part of the Student Body than they are now.

Another change that may help the team is the football facility which is now a club?

I am just spit balling, but it is damn sure different now.

locked

2586 views

They don't eat every meal at the training table. Just post-practice dinner, mostly.

locked

2582 views

They are not allowed to eat more than one training table meal per day are they?

locked

2547 views

I'm just saying they can still hang out with non-football buddies in the dining hall. They just also have nutritious meals right after practice, when previously they were choosing between rushing to a picked-over dining hall or eating Burger King.

locked

2559 views

Much less 20 years ago or longer.

The money is bigger, and the expectations are higher and expected much sooner.

locked

2624 views

EDIT: But then again, ND has never been shy about financially leveraging the football team.

Was one of the big starts to this most recent college football financial boom precipitated by Us with the NBC deal - ironic.

locked

2594 views

every other major player in college football entered the 21st century, while Notre Dame grabbed tradition and cried.

locked

2623 views

- No text -

locked

2519 views

Being relevant to 19 yr olds isn't compatible with standing still.
I hear there's this thing called the internets for example....
Media and how impressions are made have changed a bit.
Oh how I long for Lindsey Nelson.

locked

2576 views

it happens in every generation and we old folks need to get over it?

I am not disagreeing with you, I think this is probably right.

locked

2603 views

The internet and modern media expose kids to so much more. And everything is so much geared around instantaneous payoff.
Tradition, Catholicism and cold weather are less appealing to young people with more options and broader horizons while looking for a quick fix.
And parents relocate far more than they used to, as do their jobs. And the movement is all South and West.
It's a very different world tha Ara's era.

locked

2503 views

You want Ara? go pick on Jack.

locked

2485 views

http://bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=15727

locked

2697 views

- No text -

--
"F--- everyone who isn't us."
#Team128

locked

2760 views

I'll concede that I'm probably more boring now that I've largely lost interest in waging internet message board brawls.

locked

2645 views

There's two sides to each argument. I think we need to find a place in between.

locked

2876 views

More than anything I am mostly baffled by the histrionic reaction especially on process.
I have no way of proving this, but feel like maybe I'm the silent majority. I much prefer grass, but i understand it wasn't working for many reasons and accept that it had to be changed. But i don't feel it will detract from our identity or values.
It's just not that big a deal.
And as I feel about everything Jack does, i think he's handled it very well.

locked

2806 views

- No text -

locked

2512 views

Not-so-silent majority maybe now.

locked

2527 views

- No text -

locked

2562 views

- No text -

locked

2567 views

- No text -

--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

locked

2653 views

I would also add that personally the markings on the field are much more important than whether the surface is grass or turf. I assume that the diagonal stripes and lack of a midfield logo with remain, so I'm fine with the switch to turf.

I'm also working under the assumption that the turf will be a dark, rich green green color - like healthy grass.

locked

2712 views

- No text -

locked

2621 views

don't care that much.

It's like the guy who is up for tenure, and the review board asks him, "is it true that you hold quite radical political views?" And he replies, "oh yes, but I don't hold them very strongly."

locked

2672 views

Our current set of football uniforms is an example of that harmony.

--
-Ya boy Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

locked

2785 views

I don't recall the uniforms in the early 2000's with the stripes down the side getting that much attention, but there is proof that not all change is good change.

http://a.espncdn.com/media/ncf/2002/0921/photo/a_arnaz_i.jpg

locked

2760 views

The "pit stain" mantra mentioned elsewhere.

locked

2735 views

The most apt description I heard of them was "pit stain" jerseys. It was supposed to create some kind of swooshy look when the player got into a three-point stance, I think, which was kind of dumb because roughly 1/3 of the players ever get in a three-point stance and the swooshy look is, you know, kind of an iconic marker of Adidas's biggest competitor. Duh.

They were objectively awful.

--
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." - Yeats

locked

2699 views

They get overshadowed by the BC green jerseys, I think. The band got matching green hats that day that were actually made by the people who do John Deere clothing.

locked

2718 views

- No text -

locked

2713 views

[image]

locked

2502 views

- No text -

locked

2724 views

the Polo Grounds

Is it just me or are there alot of recent

I hate to reply to my own post, we got off on

It Takes Change to Make Change

I think you're where I've been

but at the same time

Agree and nice post.

Perfect

Good post

A thousand times, yes.

There you go again.

Excellent. And correct.

This fall's seniors will have had Crazy Train in the

I still miss the helmet raise.

Gladiatorial

Gladiators in Under Armour?

Well said.

Yes, you hear where I am coming from.

Super-very-Exactly!!!!

that's three more exclamation points than allowed

Just be glad he didn't say Eggzackaly, or similar.

He was really in agreement.

Two of those (at least) were not "traditions"

Shamrock helmets.

And those two are important for winning games

I think an all athletic dorm may help those things too.

Perhaps, but that is clearly contrary to ND's mission.

Agreed and that is why I choose the example.

Look, I love a good slippery slope argument.

Was a training table considered "minor" twenty years ago.

I'm not worried about that.

How about oversigning? Could that happen at ND?

Nope, and not having one is a selling point I think

I don't think you can rely on "tradition" for this argument.

Corey Robinson

what we need are more PLS majored players

2014 prediction:

Hopefully, it won't be in reference to Kelly's play-calling.

Corey: "Concealed talent brings no reputation."

Eh, not that much

OK

"But Notre Dame football players ALWAYS

In fact, they didn't when I was at ND

I don't want to focus on one issue, that was certainly not

Yes, they can still do that now

I was talking about post practice dinners.

I think that's right

It's an entirely different game than it was 10 years ago.

Totally agree - which, in a way, "worries" me more.

Bad coaching didn't help, but institutionally

Penn St clung to their traditions but grabbed something else

it's an entirely different world

And is what you are really saying is that

I am saying more than that

Do I sound THAT old? - I was there with Holtz not Ara.

spesh beat me by a few months

Fueled Slainte is the best Slainte.

You're too kind.

We should all re-read Slainte's post

i missed it the first time; a fine post

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Me, too.

Amen.

Think silent majority is exactly right

Same here

Agree across the board

Gold turf would be awesome

Yup. Grass good, turf not as good

Theory

While we are on uniforms

I remember them getting railed on NDN.

Oh, I recall them

You don't remember the racing stripes?

Alternating stripes of grass and FieldTurf. Sold.

Arkansas State beat us to it

Yes, his post nails it.