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Tommy's end zone pick

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 12:59
edited by Jay, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:02

(just to bring it into its own thread)

video cued up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fVX9cKNAuAs#t=2394

(by the way, on the previous play did anybody see Donald chuck Watt to the ground well after the whistle? Could/should have been a PF.)

presnap read. Brown goes to the back of the end zone, Daniels to the flat. Koyack stays to block. Rees rolls out right.

[image]

here's what Tommy sees when he releases it. I guess he thinks Brown is going to break past coverage. He clearly doesn't see the safety over the left-middle (out of frame).

[image]

fin

[image]

Tags:
cut-ups

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Possible explanation from jt at NDN

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 14:47 @ Jay

"HTown, you made me look. it's sprint right option

old west coast offense play that bigFella would like as it is 40 plus years old but he can call it "modern."

Outside wr runs a deep in route and then runs the back of the end zone and finds a free area. Inside wr runs a quick out and sits. Rees is supposed to roll out and find the primary read (inside wr) and if he is covered extend the play to the sideline to look for the wr running the end line and/or force the guy(s) covering primary read to get in pursuit.

Two man route with an overload block on the edge. Designed to get outside of their DT.

here is what it is supposed to look like:


[image]

"

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Other than the personnel, formation, and routes

by Jeff (BGS), A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 18:40 @ Joe

That looks dead on

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Maybe I'm not following?

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Wednesday, November 13, 2013, 05:26 @ Jeff (BGS)

With the exception of the diagrammed play having a TE tucked on the backside, whereas ours was play side, it looks pretty close to what we ran -- and explains why Chris Brown apparently stopped right before the throw.

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could be

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 15:43 @ Joe

The tight end alignment doesn't appear to match the diagram. Also if the outside receiver is supposed to breaoutside again... Wtf is Brown doing on this play?

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if a WCO play, sprint-right option was Montana to Clark iirc

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 14:59 @ Joe

for "the Catch" to beat the Cowboys.

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A play that would work a hell of a lot better

by CK08, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 14:56 @ Joe

with a mobile QB.

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Oh great. Kelly's calling plays that only Joe Montana

by Bill, Southern California, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 15:03 @ CK08

can execute.

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That makes a lot of sense.

by PAK, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 14:52 @ Joe

Even accounts for Brown slowing down, looks like he was about to cut back the other way along the endline to go with Rees and away from the Safety.

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Here's something interesting.

by Bill, Southern California, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 14:07 @ Jay

I was puzzled why the throw was to Chris Brown. That play, which I'm pretty sure we've run variants of before, is usually made to TJ. However, if you go back to the previous play, after blocking a Pitt receiver in the end zone, it appears that TJ asks out of the next play. I presume he was replaced by Brown.

So perhaps Brown ran an incorrect route there, or didn't move across the back of the end zone as quickly as Tommy is used to seeing with TJ. I don't know if we would have had a different result had TJ stayed in the game, but it was an interesting item for me to see.

[Edit: Just noticed that FDS noted the same below]

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not for sure

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:43 @ Jay

But I think something goes wrong with the blocking scheme. Stanley ends up blocking Niklas's ass. My guess is that one of Koyack or Niklas is supposed to release, but that they couldn't pass their man off correctly to Stanley.

EDIT: Looks like Stanley is initially trying to get on the backer, but the backer senses it and whips around the guy Niklas has engaged which screws up the play.

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All the more reason why Rees should've thrown it away.

by NDTerp, I am not Jay. I never have been Jay., Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:55 @ HumanRobot

If he was down a receiver, why take the risk?

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That and it was only second down

by Jack @, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 15:12 @ NDTerp

[ No text ]

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Rees in the 4th Quarter

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:33 @ Jay

He started off by hitting TJ Jones for 17 yards on the play that got us down to the Pitt 3 yard line.

Including that completion his numbers were: 12 of 24 for 258 yards and 2 TDs.

After that he was 6 of 15 for 60 yards and 2 INTs (on the first two of the last 15 attempts).

His last 10 attempts he went 3 of 10 for 29 yards.


Ugh

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If, and that is a big if...

by Costa Rican @, San Jose in beautiful Costa Rica, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:31 @ Jay

he puts all the mustard into that throw and rifles it, rather than lazily lobbying it towards the back of the end zone, we get a touchdown, assuming Brown catches it.

In the second frame there is a big enough window to zip something in there. I guess expecting that throw with the roll to the right was not a recipe for success with Tommy NO at the helm on Saturday night.

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Where did Cam go?

by CK08, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:10 @ Jay

Was he in to block, too?

He or one of the tight ends must have done something wrong there. Otherwise that play makes no sense.

By the way, with Golson at QB, there was an easy running lane for a TD.

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stayed in to block

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:12 @ CK08

actually picked somebody up.

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Either he (or more likely a TE) had to have stayed in when

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:14 @ Jay

they should have released out. That's about the only way I can imagine someone actually designing that play. Otherwise, we're banking on our 2 beating their obvious 3, with the entire defensive backfield flowing in that direction.

Odd choice if the play was supposed to look like that.

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If we never roll Tommy out of the pocket again, I'd be happy

by PootND ⌂ @, Jersey City, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:10 @ Jay

The OL has been awesome at pass pro this year. It's not like we need to roll him out for protection purposes.

From my memory, the only good pass Tommy threw on a rollout on Saturday was when he stopped rolling before passing.

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Completely agree

by Jack @, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:53 @ PootND

At this late juncture, I'm not expecting improvement.

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Looks like Brown slows dramatically

by bpeters07 @, Sack Lake City, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:07 @ Jay

around the same time that Tommy releases (right after your second frame, around 40:39 in the linked video).

That play was f'd in all kinds of ways.

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I think Brown's supposed to run a fade/corner

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:30 @ bpeters07
edited by Jay, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:53

It doesn't make sense that you'd have Rees rolling right and a receiver cutting left. That could explain why Brown stopped in his tracks too.

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If he ran a fade, wouldn't you have brought Daniels on the

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:34 @ Jay

cross? Otherwise you'd be running the entire defense to the same side of the end zone.

I ask because I obviously don't know.

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I'm thinking hi-lo concept

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:50 @ Joe

which we usually do with a rollout to one side. One of them should be open.

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Or Koyack releasing. (EDIT: or Niklas)

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:35 @ Joe
edited by Greg, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:51

Heck, it looks to me like Koyack almost releases, then jumps back in to help with the blocking. Maybe he was supposed to release? There was sure enough space there for him to do so if he wanted to.

EDIT: On the other hand, Niklas looks like he was trying to pass off the guy on him either out to Koyack or in to the tackle (both were in position to take him), but the guy tied him up and he couldn't free himself.

Interesting, but I think we're getting close to an answer, because a TE releasing there would have had a lot of space to move.

---
#asshat

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you're right, he stopped right before TR threw it

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:11 @ bpeters07

You can see it clearly on the replay.

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Brown needed to fight for that one

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:13 @ Jay

I've generally been disappointed with how Daniels are co. fight for the ball when it's near a defender. Bad decision by Tommy regardless, but Brown needed to use his blazing speed to come up in the end zone and not just watch it happen.

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Koyack and Will Fuller have surged past Brown...

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:17 @ HullieAndMikes

...and plays like that are a big reason why:


Games 1-5
Brown: 7 receptions for 125 yards
Fuller: 2 receptions for 48 yards
Koyack: 0

Games 6-10
Koyack: 9 receptions for 158 yards, 3 TDs
Fuller: 4 receptions for 112 yards, 1 TD
Brown: 3 receptoins for 30 yards, 1 TD

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It feels like Tommy tends to sail throws over Chris Brown

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:19 @ FunkDoctorSpock

[ No text ]

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where is TJ on that play?

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:16 @ HullieAndMikes

We've run that play and hit TJ in the back of the end zone for scores before. Why was Brown in there instead?

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He got ND down to the 3 yard line two plays earlier

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:20 @ Jay

Did he get dinged on that play?

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maybe?

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:25 @ FunkDoctorSpock

He was in on the prior play, blocking for Cam.

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Very good question. It looks like TJ's MSU touchdown

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:16 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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Got it. Not quite, I don't think.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:21 @ HullieAndMikes

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Um. (EDIT: Nah)

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:23 @ Joe

Given how poorly the Rees-Brown INT play seems to have been designed, is there any chance that either Daniels or Brown ran the wrong route and/or wasn't even lined up right?

EDIT: No way on the bad line-up. We still had :15 on the play clock for Tommy to move one guy to the right spot. But still possible on the route.

---
#asshat

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I'm thinking one of the tight ends was supposed to release.

by Joe ⌂ @, North Endzone Goal Line, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:29 @ Greg
edited by Joe, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:35

You run the one WR to the corner to draw coverage that way, then use a crossing route at the back of the end zone to pull the LBs back, and then drag the TE out of the backfield.

That at least makes a little bit of sense.

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Yeah.

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:32 @ Joe

If Daniels ran two guys off to the front corner, and Brown and one of the TEs crossed, then the safety should have been trailing the TE as the TE ran middle depth in the end zone to the right of the play, same as Tommy. I'd go so far as to say that Brown was expected to run himself out of the play (with Tommy rolling opposite of the direction he was running) such that he wasn't even a real option on the play, and that may have contributed to him slowing down. Note that Daniels, double-covered, also seems to slow down instead of keeping up a sprint for the pylon. So maybe the primary option on the play never even got into the pattern?

---
#asshat

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The middle is wide open, isn't it?

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:31 @ Joe

Six with a mobile QB, six if Brown slants into the open while running parallel to his true route.

Maybe six if Tommy just does his job and throws it away.

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yes and yes

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:24 @ Greg

[ No text ]

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My guess is that TR changed the protection and rolled

by Dylan, Santa Barbara, CA, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:30 @ Jay

based on his read.

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Yeah, it's a different play but similar route back there

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:23 @ Joe

I bet it helped Tommy's lizard brain think he could squeeze it in, though

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I'm blanking at the moment

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:24 @ HullieAndMikes

but we've run plenty of back of the end zone crossing routes before.

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The Jeff Samardzija Memorial Back Endzone Crossing Route

by HullieAndMikes, Joe Turner's bookcase, ALHS, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:28 @ Jay

[ No text ]

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yep. similar area, but definitely a different play

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:23 @ Joe

[ No text ]

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Definitely noticed, and commented on, Donald chucking Watt.

by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:01 @ Jay

Between the sh*tty play and the putrid officiating I had my yearly RAGE FIT during this game.

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For purposes of pouring Sriracha on my paper cut...

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:00 @ Jay

...can you link to a similar cut-up or video of the Tulsa interception?

I know the specifics were different. Was the theme the same?

---
#asshat

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the difference between then and now

by Jay ⌂, San Diego, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:14 @ Greg

Well, there should be a difference between then and now because Tommy is three years older and has thrown hundreds of passes since then.

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Yeah (found the video)

by Greg, the 'Dena, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:15 @ Jay
edited by Greg, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:20

That's kinda where I was headed. Man, this whole thread makes me want a beer. Or fourteen.

Found the video on Tulsa's website. Go to about 2:30 in the video at the page here: http://www.tulsahurricane.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/103010aab.html

Totally different specifics to the two situations. On the similarities page, TR thought he had one on one coverage and didn't see the safety coming over; he threw the ball not in a place where only his guy could get it; and he was rolling right when it happened.

---
#asshat

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My recollection against Tulsa was that we had receiver

by BillyGoat, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:02 @ Greg

(don't remember who) open but that the ball had to be thrown to the back pylon so he could make a play. Instead, it was just grotesquely underthrown.

This was a force into double coverage with yet a third defender making the play on the ball.

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I think Floyd was double-covered

by Brendan ⌂ @, The Chemical and Oil Refinery State, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:04 @ BillyGoat

Or at least well-covered by his man with clear safety help over the top, and the safety was in the vicinity when the ball was intercepted. In any case, yes, the ball was put in the absolute worst possible spot.

---
Listen to the voice of Life, and you will hear Life crying, "Be!"

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I thought single

by Bill, Southern California, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:09 @ Brendan

In fact that was the genesis of the "Get used to it" quote from Kelly, in terms of "if we have single coverage on Michael Floyd" we're going to go to it.

But maybe the read was single coverage and the safety rolled over late.

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Was Floyd. Ball needed to be placed outside shoulder

by PootND ⌂ @, Jersey City, Tuesday, November 12, 2013, 13:03 @ BillyGoat

If he does that, it's either a TD or incomplete.

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