Is Swarbrick greasing the skids for conference affliation?
by Pat, in the cloud, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 13:28 (5936 days ago)
I would almost rather ND abandon football than join a conference like the Big 10 to play football. I hope and pray ND can find capable leaders (and perhaps they are already in place) to keep ND from the cheap and easy jump into a conference lap.
I really hate that Swarbrick used the phrase "force our hand". That implies, at least to me, that we really don't value independence as much as he might say and sounds like the kind of thing you say to prepare someone for the inevitable.
I have no problem with anything he said I'm happy he said it
by MadisonDomer, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:26 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
He sounds like a deep-thinking high-level lawyer. He doesn't shut doors and he doesn't speak in absolutes like a political pundit might. However, when he betrays formality it's to say things like, "trying like hell," which means (to me) that he's actually fighting to keep independence against a landscape/media/academia/business administration that thinks there's no reason to keep independence.
I think he's one of us; the only difference is he actually has to be held accountable for what he says so he doesn't say stupid things like "NOTRE DAME WILL NEVER JOIN A FOOTBALL CONFERENCE!"
You and I can say crap like that because we're not in charge; he can't.
Everything I've read from Swarbrick on this issue sounds the same, "I don't want to do it and hopefully I get to make the decision in the end instead of someone else making it for me."
The things everyone "wants" him to say are impossible to say for someone who actually has control of anything.
how is he held accountable?
by Pat, in the cloud, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:38 (5936 days ago) @ MadisonDomer
He's not a lawyer that is legally bound by what he says. He's an athletic director. He can be absolute the same way a coach can be absolute that we'll always have the schematic advantage in a game. In the end it's just meaningless press conference words.
I agree that it might not be the most politically correct thing to say, but there is nothing to keep him from saying "Notre Dame will never join a conference as long as I'm the athletic director". If Moose Krause can call the NCAA a bunch of communists at the height of the Cold War over their decisions on TV broadcasting rights for individual colleges, I don't see why Swarbrick can't be a bit more forceful in his own right.
As others have pointed out, saying things like "force our hand" are usually said by people laying down a quote of opposition prior to a move that they know most people won't like.
There are two ways to look at his words
by BPH, San Diego, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:53 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
That he's "greasing the skids" or otherwise preparing us to grow accustomed to a path that will eventually lead to conference affiliation.
Or that he's simply being honest, and that he and the administration do indeed deeply value our independence but that there are indeed serious external forces that could dramatically alter the current landscape and force ND to make very difficult decisions.
In the end, they are simply words. In the end, Swarbrick should be judged on his actions.
There's a 3rd option
by Samari, Bahston, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 16:04 (5936 days ago) @ BPH
He could be purposely trying to whip everyone into a frenzy to prove a point to the PTB who think joining a conference is a good idea. The guy kept an airtight lock on the coaching search, so if he's saying something now there's got to be some motivation for it. If he was in active negotiations to join a conference I doubt he'd say anything.
When is our NBC contract up for renewal?
by Jeff (BGS)
, A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:16 (5936 days ago) @ Samari
Is it possible that he is using this as leverage with NBC?
Runs through 2015
by Sherman Oaks, California, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:33 (5936 days ago) @ Jeff (BGS)
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What he said
by MadisonDomer, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:56 (5936 days ago) @ BPH
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Like I said, (to me)
by MadisonDomer, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:49 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
I'm encouraged by the language and everyone else is discouraged.
To this point thus far we're NOT in a conference although we could be in one at any time and several are expressing interest publicly. Swarbrick also has NOT become the President of the NCAA even though many people said he would taken that job at that time.
People can spend all the time in the world pissing their pants over words but until the decision is made all they are doing is projecting their own opinions on the speaker.
Meanwhile the headlines I've seen in the media (yes, ESPN is a member of the media) read more like, "Notre Dame continues to reaffirm desire for independent status." I read the story and the quotes before I read anyone else's interpretation of it and it sounded like something I would say in Jack's position. The fact that I'd say it and the fact that we're not in a conference right now and that Jack sounds tired of the question gives me hope. To others it gives them pain. I just interpreted it as honestly as possible. He sounds measured, reasonable, and like he has a strong desire to maintain independence.
If Jesus came down from heaven and told us we should be in a conference, I trust he'll be allowed to change his mind. (Personally I'd only change my mind if it was Ra because Jesus was a bit of a wuss...always healing stuff, he never smoted anyone in his life)
I disagree
by Jeff (BGS)
, A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:38 (5936 days ago) @ MadisonDomer
Everything he said seemed to be setting himself up for combating the critics if (when?) ND joins a conference. He is already answering the complaints by saying that he's "trying like hell" to stay independent. If (when) we join, it will be because his hand was forced and despite all his effort, not because he made the decision to make the move.
Of course, there's the remote chance that he's using this as negotiating leverage with NBC, but I don't know...
Who/what forced Penn State's hand? ND?
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:21 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
What about Miami's and Florida State's and Pitt's? Our independence ought to be fiercely protected, but I wonder where we would be if other independents had remained so -- it wasn't our job to protect their independence, but were we somewhat responsible for the current state of affairs by kick-starting the money grab? (I might be mistaken about this, so please correct me if I'm wrong).
Also, is there any realm of possibility that one of the "doomsday scenarios" on the horizon is the division of FBS to something like a 64-team "Super D1A" (say eight eight-team divisions, 7 division games, 3 non-division games, 16 team playoff of the eight champs and eight at-large). I've always had it in my mind that such a thing would be completely implausible; but it would also be the ONLY scenario in which I thought we damn well better be a part of if it came to fruition, independence or not.
It's a weaselly thing to say.
by San Pedro
, More than 100 feet from Bob Davies, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:09 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
If you're going to join a conference and cast away a century plus of football independence, at least have the balls to accept responsibility for the decision. Swarbrick's comments are designed to provide cover for what proves to be a wildly unpopular decision among the fanbase.
What exactly would you have him say?
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 07:54 (5935 days ago) @ San Pedro
"No comment"? "We will join a conference over my dead body"? "Fuck you guys -- I'm going home"? How would you describe a scenario in which ND would, heaven forfend, actually join a conference?
What Swarbrick said on the matter was reasonably frank, IMO, and I don't take issue with that.
This aggression will not stand, man.
by San Pedro
, More than 100 feet from Bob Davies, Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 09:13 (5935 days ago) @ KGB
When you're in a tight spot, it's perfectly acceptable to fall back on El Duderino.
I don't believe him - I don't think ND's hand can be forced to the extent that joining a conference and casting away football independence is the only acceptable solution. If ND is going to join a conference, I'd rather he give us the straight dope, whatever that is.
Excellent point
by Sherman Oaks, California, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:32 (5936 days ago) @ San Pedro
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I just wonder
by APND02
, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:54 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
if we would even be having a conversation about this if Notre Dame football was what it used to be. If this was the late 80's or early 90's and the team consistently played at an elite level would something like this conference expansion movement even be enough to force Swarbrick's hand?
It seems that there is this pervasive notion amongst those that guide the program that Notre Dame football is relegated to mediocrity and that, as such, it is better to bargain for the best deal. This is most often personified by the constant financially-motivated decision making that seems to drive the program.
Personally, I believe that excellence on the field and the other missions of the University aren't mutually exclusive, and think Notre Dame football is good for a lot more than money. Notre Dame football could be the strongest brand in the country and worth far more in dollars and bargaining position than any of the leadership acknowledge.
Or perhaps they just aren't willing to pay the price to succeed at an elite level or don't think it worthwhile.
This is why we need good leaders
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:02 (5936 days ago) @ APND02
I wonder if we would even be having a conversation about this if Notre Dame football was what it used to be. If this was the late 80's or early 90's and the team consistently played at an elite level would something like this conference expansion movement even be enough to force Swarbrick's hand?
We need good leaders because you and I can wonder about this, but Jack has to be certain. He has to know exactly what is out there facing us, and what is going to be facing us in 5 years and what is going to be facing us in 10, and in 20 (well, he has to be calculating based on available information and trends when he gets that far out).
It's also why we need to admit, as rational people, that we don't have all the information and that our desires are just that -- desires -- and not rational conclusions based on all the facts.
But most of all it's why we darn well better have good leaders in Jack and Fr. John. Lord knows we didn't in their predecessors.
Then we're screwed, because we don't
by El Kabong
, Oak Lawn, IL, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:25 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
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Explain
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 16:15 (5936 days ago) @ El Kabong
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For one thing, Jack is not talking like a leader
by Sherman Oaks, California, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:37 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
A leader wouldn't prattle on about supposedly being "forced" into joining a conference. As San Pedro duly notes, that's a weaselly way of avoiding responsibility for the eventual decision.
I have a great deal of personal respect for Fr. Jenkins, but I dearly want him to make an unequivocal reaffirmation of ND's declaration of independence. Because Jack's words, in and of themselves, are clearly calculated to pave the way for imminent Big Ten membership.
He's not talking like you want him to talk
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 13:13 (5935 days ago) @ Sherman Oaks
That doesn't mean he's not talking like a leader.
If you don't agree that there are outside influences at play, and that those influences may align in a way that forces our hand with respect to a conference, then we've been watching two different things over the past 20 years.
Of course there are outside influences
by Sherman Oaks, California, Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 18:32 (5935 days ago) @ Greg
A leader, however, would not talk as though it's inevitable that ND must succumb to those influences. That's essentially what Jack is saying.
I strongly agree with you
by APND02
, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:04 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
regarding not having all the data. And that is precisely what allows me to maintain hope.
That said, I fear what lies ahead.
it might be down to Brian Kelly
by Pat, in the cloud, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:59 (5936 days ago) @ APND02
if he wins big and wins right away, then ND will probably still have the clout to stick with independence even if superconferences form. ND will still have the national fanbase which turns into the advertising dollars necessary for ND to continue to buck the trend of increasing consolidation.
But if we find ourselves with the fourth failed coach in a row and no real credible threat of being a consistent challenger for the championship, it would be pretty easy to "force ND's hand" into joining a superconference with the alternative being hanging out with the likes of Boise State and Utah as "the best of the rest" who get a pat on the head every time it comes time to schedule the national championship game.
The fact that the fate of Irish football may no longer
by APND02
, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:02 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
be controlled by those in charge of the program speaks volumes about a) the emphasis placed on football and b) the quality of management that has presided over the program in recent years.
If Notre Dame football was truly valued by the University and its leaders, I don't believe it would have come to this.
As the citizens of Rock Ridge so deftly put it...
by El Kabong
, Oak Lawn, IL, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:50 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
...you bet your ass.
I thought RH stopped caring when Kelly was hired
by CW (Rakes)
, Harlan County, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:58 (5936 days ago) @ El Kabong
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--
by Jim (fisherj08)
, A Samoan kid's laptop, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:40 (5936 days ago) @ El Kabong
edited by Jim (fisherj08), Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 05:17
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Rock Ridge. Not even close to the same thing
by El Kabong
, Oak Lawn, IL, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 21:30 (5936 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)
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I thought they wouldn't take the Irish.
by irishoutsider
, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:19 (5936 days ago) @ El Kabong
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Bad omen for the NBC contract
by irishoutsider
, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:42 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
NBC coming in with a lowball offer or no offer at all would create the kind of situation Swarbrick describes.
The business of ND football depends on strong TV for both income and national exposure, lacking in either hurts the program. If the landscape requires conference affiliation to succeed, there's no reward to sticking to the virtues of independence.
As distasteful a concept it would be to me right now, ND joining the Big Ten would be an improvement over some of the turd sandwich schedules coming down the pipe.
The only alternative at that point would be, as mentioned elsewhere, the creation of some kind of national super-conference, a pipe dream at best.
At one point we were independent in hoops
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:27 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
Then the Big East formed and other independents joined other conferences. As the 1980s wore on, our ability to get good TV coverage waned and the Big East's power grew. Our schedule became a joke (with one or two good games). Our recruiting became a joke, because why go to play at ND when there were suddenly better options with good TV coverage right on the eastern seaboard in ND's old recruiting territory?
Over time, our program slipped from being a major player (in a 12-year span from 1976-1987, the team made 6 Sweet 16 appearances and 3 other trips to the tournament) to middling success (3 tournament trips in 1988-1990) to utter irrelevance (in an 11-year span from 1990-2000 the team made no trips to the tournament). To put it another way, in the 16 years between Digger's Sweet 16 run in 1987 and Brey's run in 2003, we made the tournament 5 times -- 3 in a row in '88-90 and 2 in a row in '01 and '02 -- and all 5 were really tied to the Sweet 16 runs. The remainder of that 16 years was a hoops wasteland.
If the choice for football is wasteland or joining a conference, I say join -- and join on our terms and in a way that is representative of our historic place at the football table. Taking a lead position in creating a superconference would echo Rockne's historic leadership of college football in the early part of the last century and would lock ND in as a leader for the future. Being forced into the Big 11, conversely, is the worst of all possible worlds. It marginalizes us as just one bit player in a geographic concern and it puts us in a position where our voice would be minimized.
If we must go, we must. Rockne wanted to, after all. But we must go on our terms.
Apples and oranges
by El Kabong
, Oak Lawn, IL, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:51 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
If ND had 11 national titles in basketball, they could have made something happen and stayed independent for quite a while.
Yeah, they could have "Made something happen"
by Greg, seemingly ranch, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:57 (5936 days ago) @ El Kabong
Or they could have muddled around and hired a nincompoop, a golf pro, and a three-point shooting guru with social anxiety order and then found themselves in the position football is in (and they were in at the time) -- not enough strong opponents, dwindling TV coverage, and declining recruiting and fan interest.
Pretending that there are not outside forces at work in the situation is folly. Rockne knew it, and he worked with those forces instead of putting his head in the sand. We're better off with Rockne-esque leaders who have vision for the future than leaders who are so bound to the past that they let what happened to hoops happen to football.
Not that I want a conference for football. But if it's inevitable, it should be done while we have bargaining power and can make our move at our time and on our terms.
It's not inevitable
by Sherman Oaks, California, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:31 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
At least not if ND doesn't want it to be.
And with all due respect to Bob Knight, I'm sure as hell not going to "relax and enjoy it."
Yep.
by Jim (fisherj08)
, A Samoan kid's laptop, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 16:15 (5936 days ago) @ Greg
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Yes, and it's indefensibly stupid and misguided
by Sherman Oaks, California, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:20 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
At this point, the only question seems to be: Big Ten East or Big Ten West?
It's tragic, really. The last in a series of self-inflicted wounds, this one right between the eyes.
and I suppose what really bugs me
by Pat, in the cloud, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:02 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
is that this all seems to be a move to avoid being left out of the BCS should super-conferences align and try to keep an independent ND out of the BCS picture.
But what's to say this new BCS is going to stick around very long? What if after a few short years one of the superconferences, or, more likely, ESPN, decides that the current setup isn't in their best interest and that something like a playoff would be better?
The national championship deciders have been fluid throughout college football history. But conference affiliation is pretty damn permanent.
Great point
by MadisonDomer, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:27 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
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I think cash money might be driving the bus
by Jay, San Diego, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:23 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
The prospect of being frozen out of the BCS notwithstanding, I look at conference TV contracts and conference championship games (and even academic grant purses) and I see revenue streams we don't partake in as an independent.
Anybody have a link re: the actual financial implications?
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:37 (5936 days ago) @ Jay
I've seen it tossed around that ND's deal is puny compared to SEC and Big Ten, but those are apples and oranges comparisons, right? ND's deal is football-only and entirely for ND to keep. Michigan's and Florida's respective deals are a portion of the enormous sum and are for all sports.
Anybody have numbers on ND's football money from NBC + any additional monies from football + its non-football Big East money? And can we compare that figure to Michigan's or Florida's portion?
But should it only be about money?
by APND02
, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:25 (5936 days ago) @ Jay
Isn't the football team worth more than that? Doesn't it mean more than that?
I understand finances have to be considered, but they seem to be too big of a driving force.
definitely not
by Jay, San Diego, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 19:36 (5936 days ago) @ APND02
I'm just saying I think the stakes are bigger than just having a shot at the BCS title.
It's not in our best interests to join a conference
by BPH, San Diego, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:51 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
edited by BPH, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:54
But nor is it in our best interests to be left out of any new BCS scenario, especially in the absence of any foresight as to how long the new arrangement would last. For all we know, it could last as long as the current BCS, which is closing in on 15 years.
I choose to take Swarbrick at his word when he says he has a strong preference for independence, but that he's constantly monitoring the landscape.
Completely agree
by APND02
, Winston-Salem, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:45 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
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Excellent point.
by Pete, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:11 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
It would seem misguided to make such a major, fundamental decision regarding the future of the football program on a system that annually comes under serious criticism and is widely hated.
Of course, a playoff system probably becomes easier to administer if every major team is in a conference...
No college administrator is going to do that.
by JRT, Island of Misfit Toys, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:01 (5936 days ago) @ Pete
edited by JRT, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 15:14
Under a "doomsday scenario" where Notre Dame was aced out of the national championship playoff (I'll give an example later) ND would probably have two or three years to blowup the BCS by having a great team left out of the new playoff/championship, or else recruiting would fall off (as kids would have no chance of winning a title) and the football program would die on the vine and our 50 million (?) a year is potential revenue would disappear.
On the other hand, if and when the doomsday scenario comes, we'd had the option of joining a conference and guaranteeing a healthy revenue stream from football into the future.
What do you think a college administrator is going to do?
*Doomsday Scenario possibilities: I think a doomsday scenario requires some combination of: further conference consolidation, conference imposed scheduling restrictions, and changes to the BCS system. Perhaps most frighteningly, I think through some simple changes to conference scheduling practices we could be in a very bad spot.
Consolidation: For example, what if the SEC poaches Miami, Fl. St., Ga Tech and Clemson from the ACC. The Big Ten adds Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, and West Virginia. The Big 12 adds TCU, and Boise St. The Pac-10 adds Utah and BYU.
BCS: It's possible the conferences (or mega conferences) would give themselves all the spots in a playoff.
Conference Scheduling: I think the single biggest threat to our independence is having the major conferences (or all conferences) simply schedule conference games, and only conference games, the final x (4, 6, 8, depending on the number of conference games) weeks of the season. The Big 11 would have to go to an even number of teams, but they seem likely to accomplish this. If every conference did this, or if the major conferences did this and swallowed all our viable opponents, we would probably be in a do or die situation where we had to assert ourselves and break the BCS within a couple years, or permanently be relegated to second-class status playing also-rans in October and November, far away from the national championship hunt.
I really doubt a risk-averse college administrator is going to hinge a 50 million dollar revenue stream on the random factors attendant in producing championship level football, even though I would love to see us break the BCS/major conferences/NCAA.
"Bob Dylan once wrote...
by MHB (Rakes of Mallow), Chicago, IL, United States, Earth-199999, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:02 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
...'The times, they are a-changin.' Ron Burgundy had never heard that song."
cue Bill Pullman
by Jay, San Diego, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:00 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
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His wording does suggest an element of helplessness.
by Pete, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 13:44 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
He does seem to be suggesting that new alignments could shut ND out of future BCS negotiations, at which point the decision ultimately becomes does ND want to participate in the BCS or does it want to be independent? Of course, the natural progression of that query is, "Does ND want to join a conference or abandon football?"
Depending on how the conference realignments shake out, we could be entering into a most crucial point in the program's history, where Notre Dame needs to display its value to the college football world and re-establish itself as a force to be reckoned with.
Agreed.
by KGB, Belly o. the Beast, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 14:01 (5936 days ago) @ Pete
These sorts of declarations are not unprecedented and generally rife with hyperbole, but it's probably never been so critical that ND performs well on the field as it will be over the next 3-5 years. For reasons that don't have jack-squat to do with how 16-year-old recruits perceive us.
I really am running out of hope.
by Chris, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 13:35 (5936 days ago) @ Pat
I've gone from a fan of the Fighting Irish to fighting apathy.